Affirm, Connect, Resist: How Community Shapes Trans Liberation – Part 2

Transcript:

Chynah (00:02):

Hello and welcome to the social work lens. I’m your host for today, Chynah. And in the studio today I have Amanda from Outright. I have Lucy, our resident,

Luci (00:15):

Resident physician.

Chynah (00:16):

Resident Physician. Thank you.

Amanda (00:18):

Resident. Resident

Chynah (00:19):

<Laugh>. And I have Eli, founder of shapeshifters, and we are returning to our conversation about gender affirming care in Vermont. The last time we spoke, we, we really centered on the importance of the conversation. We fleshed out what gender affirming care is and isn’t we kind of landed on, it’s, it’s pretty much everything, if I recall. And we spoke about why it’s so important, particularly now. And Lucy had referenced the, the attacks that are happening in the trans community. And I was hoping that we could start off by talking about the executive orders and, and what are our understanding of the executive orders and the threats that there are to our youth currently. And I was wondering, Amanda, if you could start us off with that.

Amanda (01:12):

Yeah, I would love to. So the first thing I wanna say is that executive orders are glorified press releases. That the strategy of using executive orders rather than say legislative action, really sort of signals two things in my mind. One, it’s essentially a press release about what this administration intends to do to and trans young people and and trans community sort of more broadly, and of course all the other communities that they’re impacting, of which and trans community is a part. So they’re signaling their intent and that intent comes with some pretty limited scope in terms of administrative directive. So they can direct federal agencies for how to interpret the existing laws and rules and regulations in this new lens. So it can’t change existing law, it doesn’t roll back rules and regulations. It’s really has a limited administrative purview. But the other thing that it does is, is create a really large chilling effect. So if teachers are reading an executive order that says that using a young person’s name and pronouns in school will get them investigated by the Department of Education, that is going to make your everyday eighth grade teacher feel incredibly afraid to do right by the and trans kids in their classroom because they’re afraid of investigation of arrest of all of the ways that the state has in its toolkit to maintain control over the population. So the chaos and the uncertainty and the fear that it sows has a very real effect. The administrative direction that it gives has a very real effect when it comes to resource allocation. You know, know we’re seeing that play out in terms of research and funding and grant awards. And because of their limited scope and because executive orders necessarily need to track to current law does not itself change current law. What that means is a lot of these executive orders create a big stir and a big splash and then immediately get challenged in core. And so they take some time to play out, but in that time, it gives people a lot of fear and anxiety and worry about doing right. And so those have very real impacts in the lives of all young people. What I wanna say is that these executive orders sort of share a theme, which is that gender roles need to be rigidly enforced by the state <laugh>, which sort of in itself undermines that this is a really natural phenomenon, that there are only two genders if the state has to exert this much control to make it. So I have a lot of questions about that. But even so, seeing that this administration is really you know, flagging their intent to erase opportunities for and trans young people, if that is through military employment, if that is through federal employment that this administration really intends to roll back protections that trans students have enjoyed for the past. You know, Eli was saying 2014 was the real tipping point. I think we’ve seen a lot of progress over that time. You know, a lot of that was support from the federal government that really directed these non-discrimination advances that and trans young people have enjoyed more protection than they ever have in this past, you know, sort of span of time. And those are all threatened to be rolled back. What I wanna say is that these measures are, in my mind, a real Trojan horse attempt to do much more broadly impactive things. And so what I wanna say, you know, there’s this sort of thinking floating around the internet that says something like, well, trans people are only less than 1% of the population. Why are we focusing so much on such a small swath of the population? That’s not it for me. Partly because I think when the, you know, gender revolution has come, it’s gonna look like all of us with bodies getting to be and be who we are and do what we wanna do without, you know, getting a lot of flack for it <laugh>. And that impacts all of us. So I think there’s a, there’s a broader sense for me of who this can impact. The other thing is that because the focus on trans community and trans young people has been so targeted, it’s really stirring up this scare tactic while delivering the vehicle of a broader impact. So by that I mean the focus is on trans young people, but the bigger attack is on bodily autonomy and self-determination, your right to identify as you would like. And that is gonna impact anybody no matter who you are or where you’re sitting. So we were talking last time about some of the medical supports that are under this really broad umbrella of gender affirming care. And what I wanna say is that all of those medical advances for gender affirming care were not made for trans kids. They were made for cis kids who were hitting puberty too early and were embarrassed about it, or were developing bodies that they didn’t think matched with who they were supposed to be. And so anytime we’re seeing these advances, you know, we were talking about, you know, when menopausal women get hormones that is hormonal therapy. And so I think there’s just this real sense in the national zeitgeist right now that this is gonna only impact a small portion of the population. But that’s a really limited view that is going to be really disillusioning really soon for a lot of folks who are sort of jumping on this bandwagon because they don’t understand its gender and don’t understand how it’s gonna impact them in the long run.

Eli (06:54):

Can’t wait for Viagra to be outlawed as gender Affirming here.

Chynah (06:58):

LOL I’m just like, do you know how far this could go? My dudes? I don’t think you do.

Luci (07:05):

I wanna jump in and talk about what’s happening sort of on the healthcare front. Amanda said a lot of really, really important things the Vermont Medical Society has recently come out, like, I think it was at the beginning of March that they said that they’re gonna continue gender affirming care for the time being that UVM and all the other hospitals and Vermont are not going to stop gender affirming care because one, it’s, it’s supported by the literature that this really, really benefits this subset of folks. And two, that these executive orders are not laws, they can’t tell health professionals what and what or not to do because in reality we wanna be looking at the research and the data, putting a critical lens to it, but also like listening to like what the overwhelming data says. I know one of the biggest, like pushbacks against gender affirming care for youth is that, oh, it’s like this sort of experimental thing that we’re putting on kids. And that’s not true, as Amanda said, like cis kids were on these medications on puberty blockers to delay their puberty. Ever since like the eighties, like, and it’s been completely safe for them post-menopausal cis women were using estrogen, you know, that athletes have been using testosterone for ages. And so much of our data has said that these medications really help trans youth and to the point where they’re like more efficacious than like any other medication for any other purpose. It’s actually quite funny. Well, not really funny because some medications can have really bad effects, but anti-hypertensives are given to so many people in the United States because people have really bad blood pressure here. And there was a point where like almost everybody really was being offered these medications. And we found out over time that like old people that are on anti-hypertensives are on at a higher risk for falls because they’re not getting enough blood to their brains. They’re at a higher risk for what we call like watershed infarct because they’re not getting blood to their brains. And then they could also fall and like break bones and that leads to extensive hospitals. And that’s like a huge drain on the medical system, yet we’re not having legislation pull back support for anti-hypertensives because it is helpful for folks who have really bad hypertension. We just have now found that okay, there is this population that it actually really hurts. So we need to be more careful about how we prescribe this and we need to think about how we’re gonna monitor these folks. And we’ve come up with guidelines saying that we don’t change blood pressure medications in the emergency department. We really don’t like treat blood pressure on an inpatient medical unit unless it’s like super high, like above like 210 over whatever that’s like ungodly high. And the thing about like trans youth getting gender affirming care, there was a study that came out at the beginning of this year that showed that that there was a significant increase in their emotional and social wellbeing after getting started on gender affirming care over the course of 24 months. And then there have been other like studies of like 20,000 youths that have like started gender affirming care that have shown that like 99% of them do not regret it. And the 1% that do like most of them will regret it because of the social impacts and the lack of social support, less so that they’re not really trans and like similarly to like old people that like fall because of their anti-hypertensives, we need to be thinking about like detransition in the same way. Like they are like a population that we need to care about, but just because they exist, we shouldn’t stop providing medication.

Amanda (11:16):

And sort of what you were saying Lucy, about, you know, comparing the care with hypertensive medication, like the, the comparative rates of regret for transition care are so much lower. I think I’ve seen studies that compare like regretting trans-affirming top surgery and the levels of regret that folks have for knee surgery or top surgery for breast expansion among cis women, and that those rates of regret are upwards of three to 10 times higher than rates of surgeries that folks get for gender affirming care. So just like, just like you’re saying, these comparisons that we’re making in order to make the case that this care shouldn’t be offered are so nonsensical, so anti-scientific, so against all of the bodies of research that demonstrate the efficacy of this care.

Luci (12:12):

Yeah, and sort of like, to my point, I think that we need to like listen to research. We need to do more research, we need to listen to the research that’s already there and develop guidelines based off of that. And just broadly banning something without consulting the experts consulting the research that’s already there seems so shortsighted to me and just against everything we’ve done in medicine for so long.

Eli (12:36):

So I do want to chime in on my understanding of the executive orders because I think this, what you are both saying about the science and the research and the facts is important information for anyone who wants to make policy based on science and research and facts. And my understanding of these executive orders is that that’s not the point. Is that they have no interest in the science or the research or the facts. They have no interest in decreasing suffering. I think they have an interest in increasing suffering and that is part of the point. Amanda, you mentioned an executive order where teachers could be reported to the Department of Education if they dared to use the right name for their students. I recall also an executive order that the Department of Education is to be disbanded. So who would these teachers be reported to? Who would be investigating them? Are, do those people still have jobs? The nonsensical cacophony of executive orders that have come out this year just nonstop don’t make sense to us. They don’t make sense to science and they don’t make sense to each other. The executive orders, like they don’t have a logical consistency within themselves. And I don’t think they’re supposed to. I have a friend who works in disability advocacy down here in Brattleboro who talks a lot about preemptive compliance, that these orders are not here so that anyone has a, a good reason to do things and they’re not here to physically enforce a law with agents of a department that no longer exists. They’re here to scare people into complying early or to enable people to say, oh, it’s an executive order, I guess I can’t help you. They’re here to induce people one way or the other into falling in line without any physical teeth behind it. They just want people to fall into lockstep and they wanna see who will, they wanna see how many people will change their behavior based on just an EO with nothing behind it. Which is why I am really relieved to hear organizations like the Vermont Medical Association say things like, no, no, try it make us

Amanda (14:54):

Totally, these orders even go so far as to direct people to ignore the established facts and research and bodies of expertise that, you know, these executive orders. Like shout out wpath <laugh> and say that the, the established bodies of experts that have been studying this for decades now aren’t the ones who hold expertise here. Like, that’s bananas to me and to even direct NIH research funds to only focus on detransition rather than the broader swath of experience that goes into what it means to offer gender affirming care. So just, yeah, I am with you Eli, just nonsensical from start to finish. What I will say .

Eli (15:35):

Sorry, one rhetorical device against this is to say that it’s the American way to say, try it. Make us it’s the American way to defy these things.

Amanda (15:45):

Exactly.

Speaker 5 (15:46):

We, are not a country that falls in line just because somebody said so. I hope.

Amanda (15:51):

Yeah, absolutely. And, and I, I’ll also offer that on outrights website. We’ve developed some FAQ documents to help people decode these executive orders and what their impacts might be. I do have a real sense, again, that their ultimate aim is bigger than even just gender affirming care. Like I think they’re gonna use this as an excuse to roll back all kinds of federally supported healthcare access for all kinds of people. This is just the mechanism by which they’ll make an excuse for doing that. And so there’s again, just we’re, we’re all in this together for more reasons than I think we even understand yet. And so having it be like a trans problem rather than an all of us problem is just a really shortsighted way to, to line it up. So I’m with you, Eli. Like the answer needs to be come and make me and with what people.

Luci (16:39):

Yeah. We’re like already seeing in Maine, for example, that the governor is standing up for trans athletes, and I have a lot to say about trans people in sports. But now they’re like using that, the government’s using that as justification to roll back funding for healthcare for all newborns. And their aim was to roll back healthcare for like anybody who isn’t a rich white man. If you’re not Elon, if you’re not Trump, if you’re not one of those people, then you don’t deserve healthcare. You don’t deserve the good that’s out there in the world. And that’s what they’re trying to do. They’re trying to make people scared, and they’re really just trying to take away people’s bodily autonomy. And it’s really, really scary. And it’s really scary that they started off with, oh my gosh, there are men and girls sports. Like, this is why we need to do all of this when that isn’t like the real problem at all. In reality, there are like trans girls that like wanna play sports and unfortunately like schools and other, other places don’t really affirm them. And then they either like, don’t play sports or they play sports in a very unhealthy way in order to like try to lose a lot of weight. And that’s just really, really sad. We have like, so much like data and research, I’m always like going back to the data and like research, but like sports improves the mental health, the physical health the emotional wellbeing of every single young person. It’s such a great way to develop young people’s brains that’s not just sitting in a classroom and it builds teamwork. It allows people to start thinking outside the box. Some of our like smartest people are people who have like, also played sports because that has really, really like helped develop their brain. And preventing a subset of the population from doing sports is really scary because you’re preventing them from developing their brain in a way that they really deserve. And we also just have so much data that says that when trans people start hormone therapy, their, their bodies act very similarly to cis people of the same gender. And unfortunately all of that research is ignored because republicans right wing people, even like supposedly well intentioned, like left wing people are saying like, well, I support like trans people but not trans girls in sports. Like, that’s something that I totally agree with Trump on. And that’s ignoring the reality that like trans people are like so unlikely to be on a sports team. Like there is, like, there’s data on the youth risk behavior survey from 2024 that says that trans youth are like a quarter likely to be like on any sort of sports team to their cisgender counterparts. And that puts them at a risk for so many, like health issues, like down the lines, the conversation should not be about limiting trans people from being in sports. It should be the exact opposite. How do we make places more inclusive to them? And it’s just really sad that like this issue that is important for the subset of folks has turned into a way for the government to take away healthcare, to take away bodily autonomy for everybody.

Amanda (20:07):

I so wish that sports had a mechanism to allow for people with different sizes, maybe like weight classes or assessing for skills and ability in order to create like a and b teams so people could all play on a level playing field. Oh wait, we have that. Oh, there are ways that we could do that, that don’t involve gender at all. There’s just something to it here. Like I think that there’s, there’s such truth in what you’re talking about, Lucy, in terms of the social emotional learning and community building and physical development of all young people. And Vermont has really done a wonderful job in creating protective law and policies that really, you know, what you’re talking about is a government trying to limit the access to opportunity for a subset of the population. That sure sounds like discrimination to me. And in Vermont, we very much consider that an interruption to equal access to an equitable education. And so there’s, there’s what the federal government is trying to enforce with these glorified press releases. And then there is what institutions in Vermont are mandated to do by Vermont law. And so as folks are, as Eli said, preemptively complying with these announcements because of the fear that they stoke what they’re actually doing is getting themselves into some legal trouble here in Vermont if they wanna try to discriminate against a protected category of young people, which are trans young people.

Chynah (21:36):

This has been really helpful for me, and I can only imagine really helpful for our listeners to start to think about the executive orders in this way. And we will provide a link in our show notes to the FAQ page that you were referencing, Amanda because I think that people will be interested to, to learn more about how they can show up. And on that note, I do want to transition us into a conversation of, with everything that’s going on and what we, what we know to be true and with uncertainty with all of those things, what would you say to listeners who are sitting here now listening to this and going, okay, I am on board. I really wanna show up for these youth in this community. What can they do to protect these folks now?

Eli (22:25):

I think now is the time to be a joiner. Join specifically non-governmental, non-G governing bodies, community organizations, whether you are in the L-G-B-T-Q community and it’s time to go to that supper or that potluck or show up at that picnic, or you would like to find an ally organization. We have lost River Racial justice down here in Brattleboro, which is my go-to for as a white person, what can I do for people of color and Vermont, there’s a lot of allied organizations around showing up to events, showing up to spaces and saying, Hey, I’m part of this community too. The winter is over and I’m crawling outta hibernation. What can I do has been hugely helpful to everybody. And the more we band together without the aid of government or quasi government corporation moderation, like don’t use Facebook if you can help it show up in person if you can possibly, if you can find a discord channel that will point you to remote events that are organized independently, go for that. Any way to strengthen your community connections locally. That’s what’s saved me over and over again, last Trump administration, this administration, every time finding ways to affirm yourself and your people that does not depend on the greater powers that are aligned against us.

Luci (23:55):

Yeah, and I’d also like to jump in because I very much agree with all of that as a trans person and a resident physician that’s been impacted by these executive orders and all of these scares I found the things that have made me feel hopeful and joyful are going for a walk to like the coffee shops nearby and like having a long chat with the barista and just like intentionally trying to make community with people that are genuinely amazing. And the more that like we can stay off of our devices and like build community with the people around us, the stronger we’re gonna be because, and this like applies to cis people too, because you learn so much more about other people and their struggles and you know, like how to stand up for them in a way that you may not have known before. Because knowing people really like go the really far away if you’re like in trouble, then they’ll like come to like at least talk to you and that’s really, really great. I think the other thing that has given me a lot of hope and joy is like seeing c people stand up for me, whether it be like an organization saying like, absolutely not. We’re not gonna comply with this executive order or like, we’re gonna try some fancy way to get around it. Like those little things make me really, really happy. So this is like a call for hospitals or organizations to to either come up with a creative way to like get around these executive orders or to just stand up and be like, we’re not gonna take this. We’re gonna continue the care that we’ve been doing, or like, we’re gonna continue the program that we’ve been doing and come at me because we stand for this. We stand for equity, we stand for justice, we stand for the wellbeing of everybody. And yeah, that’s just seeing like people do that, just giving me so much happiness. Like all of the lawsuits that are coming in, like those are giving me happiness. So yeah, if like, if all that you can do is like go to like a town hall and be like, no, we’re not gonna ban trans girls from playing sports. That is huge. That is huge. So definitely just get out there, go to your town halls, go to your local coffee shops, go make community. It’s also so important for us.

Chynah (26:15):

I like that you provided Lucy like kind of a range of of ways to show up because I think that that’s something that I’ve been in conversation with folks about is, is what do you have capacity for on any given day? And it might be that one day you’ve got the fire and the resources to go to a protest and there might be reasons why you may not feel the capacity to do that, but everybody can show up. Most people can show up to a coffee shop and have a conversation and get to know somebody or you know, do some research online or donate some money if you have, if you have that available to you. There are so many different ways to show up and show support.

Amanda (26:56):

Yeah, I think the thing I heard and what you were saying, Lucy, was the importance of solidarity. Like that we are holding the line together, that when all of us maintain our integrity and our position in the work that we know is important and needed, it creates fewer targets for this administration to focus on and to create more fear with. And so the the thing I wanna say is like, hold the line that we will not be routed. And the embodiment or the metaphor that has been really helpful for me is thinking about those play parachutes. You know, you sort of stand in a big circle and you toss up the parachute and you pull it down and you toss it up and you pull it down and maybe you all zip under it together and then you come back out. But if folks sort of remember that experience as young people, I think what you’ll remember is, you know, sometimes you lose your corner and it flies up and then you catch it again and you hold it back down and that you’re not in this alone, you’re not responsible for responding to this alone. You just have to hold down your corner, catch it again if you let go of it for a minute and sort of stay, stay in there <laugh>. So I, I so appreciate what you said, Eli, in terms of like, come and make me like, I think there’s this real energy that Americans can stir up in themselves. Like really graphs that come and make me energy that we are so known for. I think that spreading that beyond the purview of the individual and really thinking about that as a community and the communities that we wanna be in solidarity with, like, that’s the ticket for me.

Chynah (28:23):

Absolutely. And I just, I, I quickly wanted to, on the note of solidarity perspective taking is so important in, in that as a cis as a cisgendered person, right, it is so easy for me to maybe sit back and be complicit. But if we practice perspective taking and think like what would this moment be like for somebody who was transgender or non-binary, then I can access, you know, the action that that would would enable me to be in solidarity in that moment rather than just kind of sitting back and being like, well this isn’t in the scheme of things, this isn’t important. It may not be important to me and my gender identity, but it might be important to somebody else. So I think practicing perspective taking is, is really important always. And specifically now, <laugh>,

Eli (29:14):

I also, if I can be the child of a family of economist for a second, I wanna talk for a second about material needs and what we can do to meet each other’s material needs in this time. What we are finding is a lack of access to basic things like food and shelter and medical care. Thank you Lucy, for being part of our suppliers in that field. The ability we have in Vermont to find a and or allied farmer within walking distance or a biking distance is really un I think rare and maybe unparalleled in this country that we can find somebody growing food locally who maybe we can do a work trade with. Maybe we can talk about do you need a farm hand for this season? People who can supply our basic needs, it’s really important to support them and to get support from them in turn and if you can, if you are mobile right now and you’re looking for what job or what part-time job you can do in the meantime wouldn’t hurt to learn a trade and figure out how you can help your neighbors. I say this is someone who is currently working three days a week to build tiny houses. I figured there’s only so much need for a tailor and really hard times. And also I want to know how to build better housing and more housing for my people because we’re seeing it as a crisis. How to protect each other is keeping each other alive, comes in a lot of forms and the really base needs of food, shelter, and healthcare. We can start there. We can, we don’t have to necessarily know how to defeat a bill in the legislature though. It’s always nice to participate in the actions and help try, but I think everyone in Vermont most people in Vermont can figure out how to grow a few potatoes or cook dinner for someone. There’s a lot of ways to just help each other that are increasingly important in this day and age.

Chynah (31:14):

Awesome. Yeah, I’m hearing so much about community turning inward and really focusing on, on our communities here in Vermont. Looking for places where we can help one another. Building trade skills is a really awesome recommendation. Identifying what re what local resources we have available to us. I know that like we don’t have the time or space here to name and list all of the resources and small businesses that we can support. So I mean, I would recommend that people do that research in their area and we can link in the show notes. There are definitely some websites available that help identify safe services and businesses. In our remaining few moments, are there some like burning resources that you all can think of that you wanna throw out for folks to check out?

Eli (32:09):

Centerlink,

Chynah (32:10):

Can you say that again?

Eli (32:11):

Centerlink

Chynah (32:12):

Centerlink.

Eli (32:12):

is the website that compiles L-G-B-T-Q Centers across the world. Excellent. Centerlink with an re, I believe is how it’s spelled. Nope. Centerlink with an R.

Chynah (32:23):

Okay.

Amanda (32:24):

I think the one that I wanna shout out is a toolkit that Outright has built called Handling With Care, and it’s a toolkit for parents, caregivers, any supportive adult who’s looking to really show up for the and trans young people in their lives. And it’s just, it’s so beautiful. It pairs some of the research we’ve been talking about with real interviews and, and photos and stories of Vermont families who have been in this community for a long time supporting their young people and navigating that journey together. And so you can find that on our website. I’ll make sure it’s available to link in the show notes, but that, that can be a beautiful place to start.

Eli (33:05):

I also wanna shout out Everywhere is because that’s the best website I know to find and aligned businesses. Oh, and if I can make an appeal to the listeners, if anybody wants to talk about starting a trade school, get at me. <Laugh>

Chynah (33:22):

Awesome. We can share your email in the show notes if, if you so choose.

Eli (33:30):

Absolutely.

Chynah (33:31):

This has been this has been a really helpful conversation for me and I, and I hope for our listeners as well. We are really rapidly approaching the end of our time. Any last thoughts?

Amanda (33:45):

But I have one more myth that I wanted to put to the room ’cause it’s new to me. <Laugh>.

Chynah (33:49):

love it.

Amanda (33:49):

I found it amazing. Okay, so sorry. Pop, shout out Dad again. He has a wild Facebook persona and one of his buddies got on and and shared a new word that was new to me, but he was, he was really upset about the term they, and he was so mad because it was a term in his perspective, used to make all babies gender neutral. And I was like, LOL baby is already a perfectly gender neutral term. <Laugh>, like, you’re so mad about something. That’s not a thing. I’m so curious about that. So for the room, baby, are we using this?

Eli (34:29):

No. <laugh> no. Say this is a non-binary person with a 2-year-old <laugh> who is in a, who is in a daycare full of they, them two and three year olds. No,

Amanda (34:38):

They’re Just babies. They’re toddlers. Those are gender Neutral children.

Chynah (34:41):

Baby is already gender neutral. Yes.

Eli (34:43):

They’re literally children.

Chynah (34:44):

Although one of our, one of our colleagues co-conspirators did make the point that they might be an interesting term to use with our community members who are acting like babies <laugh>. So we could maybe commander the term

Eli (35:00):

It might.

Chynah (35:02):

I love that

Amanda (35:02):

you’ve taken tender queer too far and now you’re a baby And We have limits.

Chynah (35:09):

I love that. Thank you for sharing that, Amanda. It really does highlight, I, I think the, the unfettered access that people have to information misinformation on the internet and, and some folks really kind of clinging to that and, and see it as full truth and a little bit of research goes a long way.

Amanda (35:26):

Totally. I would say phone a friend. Yeah. Anytime you’re like, I’m really mad about this call, call somebody. Call me. Yeah. You know, dad, call me before you post that. Call me.

Chynah (35:35):

I love that. Thank you. That was a funny myth. You were right. <Laugh>. It has been such a pleasure getting to meet with all of you and you all have so much expertise and I feel like we could talk for, for much longer than this, so I appreciate you taking the time that you have. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Luci (35:52):

This Has been amazing.

Amanda (35:53):

It was a delight. Thank you for having us.

Eli (35:55):

Thank you.

Cassie Gillespie (35:58):

The Social Work lens is produced by the University of Vermont’s Child Welfare Training partnership and the state of Vermont. Our theme music is composed and performed by local band Brick Drop, and our sound production and engineering has been brought to you by Egan Media Productions. We’d also like to give a special thank you to our in-house administrative production assistant Emma Baird. for the social work lens. I’m Cassie Gillespie and we’ll see you next time.