Join us for Part 1 of our series on DEI as AG Clark returns to the Social Work Lens studio to unpack current executive orders as they pertain to Diversity, Equity, & Inclusion.
Guest Info:
Charity R. Clark was sworn in as Attorney General of Vermont on January 5, 2023, and is the first woman to be elected to this position. Since then, she has made protecting Vermonters a trademark of her administration, suing Monsanto for PCB contamination of Vermont’s waterways and schools and bringing a case against Meta for Instagram’s harm to young users’ mental health. She also successfully advocated for the recommendations of the Domestic Violence Fatality Review Commission, housed in the Attorney General’s Office, and continues her work to bring focus on the issue of sexual and domestic violence. A passionate defender of reproductive rights, Attorney General Clark joined a challenge to a ban on the abortion drug mifepristone, allowing Vermonters to retain access to this safe and effective abortion medication.
Attorney General Clark’s career in the Attorney General’s Office began in 2014 as an Assistant Attorney General in the Public Protection Division. Later, she was appointed Chief of Staff, serving in the role from 2018 to 2022. During her tenure as Chief of Staff, and the first person to ever hold this position, she oversaw the Office’s expungement clinics, training countless attorneys to assist Vermonters seeking to expunge or seal their criminal records. She also championed the effort to achieve status as a Breastfeeding Friendly Employer and create a dedicated space for breastfeeding employees and visitors to the office, an effort that she would bring to fruition during her first few months as Attorney General.
Attorney General Clark was born and raised in southern Vermont and grew up working in her family’s grocery store in Londonderry, Clark’s IGA. She is a graduate of Burr & Burton Academy in Manchester, the University of Vermont, and Boston College Law School. Before she entered law school, Attorney General Clark was a policy analyst at the Vermont Governor’s Office under Governor Howard Dean. In 2005, she began her legal career as an associate at a law firm in Burlington, Vermont, and later in New York City. Attorney General Clark is an avid skier and hiker, completing the Long Trail in 2021. She is chair of the board of her town library and serves as a justice of the peace.
Host Info:
Cassie Gillespie, LICSW, is a full-time faculty member in the University of Vermont’s Social Work Department, and the host of the SOCIAL WORK LENS podcast. Cassie is a former child welfare worker, and training team lead at the Vermont Child Welfare Training Partnership (VT-CWTP) with over 15 year’s experience serving children, youth, families, and helping professionals.
Show Notes and Resources:
- VT AGO Website: https://ago.vermont.gov/
- AGO’s Multistate guidance: https://ago.vermont.gov/sites/ago/files/2025-02/DEI%20Guidance%202.13%20FINAL.pdf
- Seinfeld Snickers Bar clip: https://youtu.be/9Z-vdx_PcgU?si=XOdZCp7BpZhFPh98
Transcript:
Attorney General Charity Clark (00:00):
I think one of the reasons why DEI is not defined is it would be difficult to define it in a way that made it seem like it was discriminating <laugh>.
Cassie Gillespie (00:11):
Right?
Attorney General Charity Clark (00:11):
Because if you define it, you’re like, oh, this sounds like a good thing.
Cassie Gillespie (00:13):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (00:14):
You know, so easier to, to, to just call it DEI make it sound like a boogeyman and not really unpack what it really means.
Cassie Gillespie (00:24):
Hello, this is Cassie Gillespie and you’re listening to the Social Work Lens. The Social work lens is a collaboration between the University of Vermont Child Welfare Training Partnership and the State of Vermont. Although this episode that we’re bringing you today is the first part of a two episode series on diversity, equity, and inclusion, or DEI. Today’s episode part one, we’re gonna bring you a conversation with Vermont Attorney General Charity Clark about executive orders in general and the DEI executive orders in particular. We’re hoping that this conversation with AG Clark will kind of set the legal framework and the groundwork for you. If you, like so many of us are a little bit confused about how executive orders are working and what they’re even meant to do. For part two of this series, we’re gonna bring you a deeper conversation about DEI in higher education in particular, and we’ll do that by talking to some academics and professionals and hear about their lived experiences doing DEI work on university campuses right now. So welcome and thank you to Vermont Attorney General Charity Clark.
Cassie Gillespie (01:39):
Thanks so much for coming in today.
Attorney General Charity Clark (01:41):
It’s my pleasure to be here.
Cassie Gillespie (01:43):
We are really appreciative to have you. We started a conversation the other day with some folks from the university about DEI and specifically DEI in higher education. We know that the Trump administration has really made it a priority to dismantle DEI calling it, you know, wasteful or discriminatory or illegal at different times. And so one of the things that we really wanted to hear from you is any grounding you can give us any guidelines about how to think about these various executive orders. ‘Cause there’s a number of them and it’s difficult, I think, for people who aren’t familiar with legal procedures to know like, what’s real? What do these executive orders mean? Is it, are they laws? So yeah, wherever we wanna start with that.
Attorney General Charity Clark (02:37):
Well, something to keep in mind about executive orders is they are not laws, and just because someone, a president or a governor for that matter, issues an executive order and says a bunch of stuff, doesn’t mean that it’s actually binding.
Cassie Gillespie (02:50):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (02:50):
And in fact, and I, I don’t, I don’t mean to belittle the president, but sometimes I feel like when I read some of these executive orders and they say like dramatic things that like very obviously contradict a statute.
Cassie Gillespie (03:02):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (03:03):
And lack, and the presidency lacks the power to do what the executive order says that it does.
Cassie Gillespie (03:09):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (03:10):
I I almost feel like it’s when you’re like playing pretend and you’re like, this tree house is my, is actually, you know, you make these pronouncements that are not real, they’re fiction, they’re wishful, or they’re actually pretending and.
Cassie Gillespie (03:25):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (03:25):
I think it’s, it is a little, to be honest with you, it’s disturbing because you read them and you’re like, you literally can’t do this. And I think, well, what I know that, but what if someone isn’t, this isn’t their thing, you know?
Cassie Gillespie (03:36):
Right.
Attorney General Charity Clark (03:37):
Policies or government and they don’t realize that it feels like maybe scary or even confusing or, or you might be confused later on when the court says, no, you can’t do that.
Attorney General Charity Clark (03:48):
So I really, it’s a shame that the approach that the president has taken to affecting his agenda and putting his vision for the country in place is through executive orders, largely because it diminishes in some ways, like the power and the integrity of the office because he has so much power and influence and instead of changing the laws the way you’re supposed to through Congress,
Cassie Gillespie (04:12):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (04:12):
He’s trying to, in some cases, do it through executive order and that’s not gonna be ultimately effective.
Cassie Gillespie (04:18):
So let me just ask then, you know, I think I hear you saying this, but to be crystal clear, are there any new laws about DEI that that makes existing DEI practices illegal?
Attorney General Charity Clark (04:28):
I don’t. Well, so, so that, so let’s get into this issue.
Cassie Gillespie (04:33):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (04:35):
DEI, which is really undefined, and we see this actually in other executive orders where it’s like this, you can’t do this and it, and then this isn’t defined.
Attorney General Charity Clark (04:45):
Whatever it is.
Cassie Gillespie (04:45):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (04:45):
And it’s like, what do you even mean? I look for example, calling Vermont sanctuary state. Really? Are we, I could have fooled me. Like, I don’t know what that means. I don’t know how we would even qualify for that, but, you know, he’s declared that we are, and it’s like, I don’t, we’re not, I don’t, I don’t even know what that means. DEI, same problem. You know, he hasn’t really defined what he means when he says you can’t do this.
Cassie Gillespie (05:08):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (05:08):
So I think that the bottom line is DEI is absolutely constitutional and legal and the, I mean, honestly, the executive order that specifically relates to DEI is like, so it’s almost fascinating in terms of its like psychological flip and gaslighting. It’s, it’s really messed up. That is not how DEI works. What’s happening in, in my view is the executive order is, is conflating.
Cassie Gillespie (05:43):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (05:44):
The policies and practices around diversity, equity, and inclusion.
Cassie Gillespie (05:49):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (05:50):
With discrimination.
Cassie Gillespie (05:51):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (05:52):
And the irony is that actually putting like anti-bias measures in place actually is the thing that promotes the the rewarding on merit.
Cassie Gillespie (06:09):
Right.
Attorney General Charity Clark (06:09):
Because you’re removing bias. So the person, and it could be a white man, you know, that could be the person who is the most qualified for the job or whatever the case may be, whatever the context is. So it’s kind of ironic that they’re criticizing the very thing that could actually level the playing field for all people, including the, you know, former majority who ruled this country, white men. It’s,
Cassie Gillespie (06:32):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (06:32):
So it’s kind of a wild approach.
Cassie Gillespie (06:35):
It really is. And you know, someone recently was talking about when we use the, you know, the acronym D-E-I, D-E-I, we kind of lose sight, right? Maybe that we’re talking about diversity, equity, and inclusion, and that if we really are talking about getting rid of it, like what are we for? You know, are we for no diversity? Everyone has to be the same, and are we for inequality and exclusivity? Like, it just, it’s wild, right? When we say it like that?
Attorney General Charity Clark (06:51):
It almost reminds, it, it feels like, you know, someone is misunderstanding what it means. Like this isn’t affirmative action or quotas, you know, where you need to have a certain number of people of a certain race hired or at this university, that’s not actually what it means. It means you’re gonna do things like make sure that the pool of applicants is wide. And so you’re getting, you’re catching everybody,
Cassie Gillespie (07:24):
Right?
Attorney General Charity Clark (07:24):
That could involve not just, you know, race, it could involve socioeconomic diversity. You know, you don’t want everybody to be middle class. It’s great to have perspectives who that, that are coming from people who grew up poor or who currently are, you know, struggling.
Attorney General Charity Clark (07:39):
So I think that it’s really a, it’s, it’s such a tragedy that this obsession with DEI is so misunderstanding what DEI is.
Cassie Gillespie (07:48):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (07:48):
And how it can really help people who have been traditionally marginalized and not just, you know, when we’re getting accused of being woke, you know, tho the people we’re thinking of when we’re protecting them in our quote wokeness i.e people of color, minority people and people who marginalized communities.
Cassie Gillespie (08:08):
Yes.
Attorney General Charity Clark (08:08):
Marginalized communities, people who are LGBT lgbtq.
Cassie Gillespie (08:10):
mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Attorney General Charity Clark (08:11):
And women. And that’s not all, that’s not the full picture at all. I think especially here in Vermont, socioeconomic diversity is really, really important.
Cassie Gillespie (08:20):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (08:20):
One of the conversations, I’m sorry if I’m going off a far a afield here, but our legislature in this state is so awesome, and part of the reason why is because it is a citizen legislature that has socioeconomic diversity.
Cassie Gillespie (08:36):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (08:36):
You know, there are people in the legislature who have the same voice as a person of legislature who’s a doctor or a lawyer and they grew up poor, they didn’t go to college, and they have the same voice, and that’s good.
Cassie Gillespie (08:51):
Right.
Attorney General Charity Clark (08:51):
That means the decisions are, they’re literally representing all of us. And I’m, I’m for that. So I think it’s a real, it’s just tragic that this obsession with DEI when DEI is not only a good thing for the people. I think that Donald Trump and his friends are thinking of the L-G-B-T-Q folks, the people of color and women. It’s for all of us.
Cassie Gillespie (09:14):
I know.
Attorney General Charity Clark (09:15):
So it, it really is a tragedy that they’re trying to dismantle the progress that’s been made, you know, in our approach to hiring and especially schools.
Cassie Gillespie (09:25):
Yeah. So, with that really helpful context, you know, can you walk us through like what, what are the orders?
Cassie Gillespie (09:34):
I, I know there’s a lot, so we won’t talk about them all, but what are like the primary, when people reference the executive orders about DEI, what are they talking about?
Attorney General Charity Clark (09:42):
Well, there’s two that come to mind right away. One is about DEI and one is about trans people. The one about DEI is called ending illegal discrimination and restoring merit based opportunity. And that one was from February. So just.
Cassie Gillespie (10:04):
Right after he got into office.
Attorney General Charity Clark (10:06):
Yeah. And, and that’s the other one. I know I already talked about merit based, but it just like boggles the mind because that, that is having, you know, hired people in my career and the evolution of my own understanding of how to, to approach hiring and a not and try to remove bias and how effective it is because you’re, you’re really getting the person who deserves the job, you know, that’s merit based.
Attorney General Charity Clark (10:32):
And it just, it’s like, ugh. Drives me crazy to think they’re, they’re just misunderstanding what it means. And they’re literally shooting themselves in the foot. Like they’re literally preventing themselves if that’s what they’re worried about or whatever from getting the job, because they’re literally making it more difficult.
Cassie Gillespie (10:46):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (10:47):
And less merit based. The other one, which I, oh, this one actually even the title offends me defending women. As, as you know, I am a woman <laugh>,
Cassie Gillespie (10:57):
I know.
Attorney General Charity Clark (10:57):
Defending women from gender, I ideology extremism and in restoring biological truths to the federal government. Can I tell you something about this one that drives me bananas?
Cassie Gillespie (11:08):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (11:09):
I remember when I was a sophomore in high school,
Cassie Gillespie (11:11):
Uhhuh <affirmative>.
Attorney General Charity Clark (11:12):
And we, I was, that was a year we took biology.
Cassie Gillespie (11:14):
Okay.
Attorney General Charity Clark (11:15):
And we learned about chromosomes,
Cassie Gillespie (11:17):
<laugh>,
Attorney General Charity Clark (11:17):
Right?
Cassie Gillespie (11:18):
Yes.
Attorney General Charity Clark (11:18):
So something that whoever wrote this executive order did not learn.
Cassie Gillespie (11:21):
mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Attorney General Charity Clark (11:22):
But I learned in the early 1990s.
Cassie Gillespie (11:23):
mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Attorney General Charity Clark (11:24):
Is that we literally are not all assigned man, boy, or girl.
Cassie Gillespie (11:30):
It’s not binary there.
Attorney General Charity Clark (11:30):
It’s literally not, it’s not even something we that, you know, our, our sociology tells us it’s right biology. Not every one of us is born with XX or XY chromosomes.
Cassie Gillespie (11:40):
Right, I know. I’m laughing because it so true.
Attorney General Charity Clark (11:43):
I’m like, where, what about them? It’s like, oh, it’s the policy of the United States. That’s what it says. It says it’s the policy of the United States to recognize only two genders. And you’re like, but my actual high school biology teacher knows better than that.
Cassie Gillespie (11:55):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (11:56):
You know, you don’t need to, to have one the Nobel to know that. So right away you’re like, oh. And that one is, it’s really offensive. And I, I’m wondering if I respond that way in particular, because the justification for this discrimination and just like cruel approach to, to treating gender is supposedly to protect me.
Attorney General Charity Clark (12:18):
I don’t, I don’t need protection.
Cassie Gillespie (12:20):
I know.
Attorney General Charity Clark (12:20):
From trans people. I don’t need protection from intersex people that statistically that’s literally not who women need protection from.
Cassie Gillespie (12:27):
Right.
Attorney General Charity Clark (12:28):
For starters.
Cassie Gillespie (12:28):
Right.
Attorney General Charity Clark (12:28):
It’s just not based in, in our statistics, but it’s like, don’t, don’t use me because you wanna discriminate against people you don’t understand or don’t like, you know,
Cassie Gillespie (12:37):
Don’t do this in my name.
Attorney General Charity Clark (12:38):
Yeah. And then there’s one more executive order ending radical and wasteful government DEI programs and preferences that relates to the, the first one I mentioned. You know, just blanket approach to DEI. So can I tell you what we did in response.
Cassie Gillespie (12:55):
Yes to this, please.
Attorney General Charity Clark (12:56):
So, as we have previously discussed, I work with my fellow attorneys general across the country. So far, they’ve all been Democrats. Maybe eventually the Republicans, some of them will think these that we have a good cause and they’ll join us.
Attorney General Charity Clark (13:11):
And we put out a guidance that you can get on my website. It’s, it’s geared towards I I would say small businesses and organiz and nonprofits, organizations who, who could use some information and support related to what is the law on DEI.
Cassie Gillespie (13:29):
mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Attorney General Charity Clark (13:30):
And if you find that guidance, which isn’t even very long, it’s probably like five pages, six pages long, I think it, anyone who is concerned about this issue can find that and you’ll be reassured about your own practices.
Cassie Gillespie (13:42):
Awesome.
Attorney General Charity Clark (13:42):
Because the, the bottom line is that those executive orders are conflating this idea of, you know, expanding the, you know, the pool of applicants and diver valuing diversity equity inclusion with actually discriminating against them with preferring people who are from a marginalized community. That’s not what, what it is. And it’s really a standard best practice now. Which is also why it’s kind of seems kind of like goofy.
Cassie Gillespie (14:14):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (14:14):
Is this is just what people who are HR professionals do. I mean, that’s, you’re getting the best candidate that way. You’re having a wide pool.
Cassie Gillespie (14:22):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (14:22):
You know, you’re trying to remove any bias that anybody has. It’s like just the best way to approach things.
Cassie Gillespie (14:28):
To do it. Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (14:29):
Yeah.
Cassie Gillespie (14:29):
Well, and we can link to that guidance and we will link.
Attorney General Charity Clark (14:32):
Okay.
Cassie Gillespie (14:32):
In our show notes so people can click right to it. And I do wanna say on air that we got feedback from from particular users who have used it and love it. And just wanted to make sure that we thank you specifically in the episode for you and your office for putting that together, ’cause It’s been a really invaluable resource.
Attorney General Charity Clark (14:49):
It’s totally our pleasure. And I’m, I’m glad that people have found it useful. I mean, you know, I think when you read it, it’s gonna reflect back to you what you kind of already know.
Cassie Gillespie (14:59):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (15:00):
It’s like, oh yeah, this is what I thought.
Cassie Gillespie (15:01):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (15:01):
And that really speaks to how way off base these executive orders are. It’s like, where is this even coming from?
Cassie Gillespie (15:09):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (15:10):
I know that I might have referenced this before ’cause I.
Cassie Gillespie (15:12):
Sure.
Attorney General Charity Clark (15:12):
Think about this, this thi what I’m about to tell you lives rent free in my head.
Cassie Gillespie (15:16):
Okay.
Attorney General Charity Clark (15:17):
Did you used to watch Seinfeld?
Cassie Gillespie (15:19):
Yes.
Attorney General Charity Clark (15:19):
There’s an episode in which Elaine is working for this very wealthy man,
Cassie Gillespie (15:23):
Uh huh <affirmative>.
Attorney General Charity Clark (15:24):
And he, a snack is delivered to him. It’s a Snickers bar, but it’s delivered to him on a plate with a fork and knife,
Cassie Gillespie (15:32):
uhhuh <affirmative>.
Attorney General Charity Clark (15:32):
Like how, what is the fancy way to eat a Snickers bar, you know?
Cassie Gillespie (15:35):
Right.
Attorney General Charity Clark (15:35):
And it’s literally on China. Yeah. And so the end of the episode, I can’t even remember what else happens at the end of the episode, Elaine and friends are in the diner and the waitress arrives with their food and whoever’s with her, Jerry or whoever has ordered a Snickers bar and it comes on a plate.
Cassie Gillespie (15:53):
<laugh>.
Attorney General Charity Clark (15:53):
with a knife and fork.
Attorney General Charity Clark (15:55):
And she stands up and every single person in the diner is eating a Snickers bar on a plate with a knife and fork. And she’s like, are all you people crazy?
Cassie Gillespie (16:01):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (16:02):
I have thought of that scene so many times over the past nine months.
Cassie Gillespie (16:05):
Yes!
Attorney General Charity Clark (16:05):
’cause I’m like, am I the weird one? Or is this absolutely bananas <laugh>.
Cassie Gillespie (16:09):
Right. Well it is so refreshing and grounding to hear you say that, to hear our state attorney general sort of have that level of clear sightedness. I’m laughing as I say that maybe it’s scary that we’re all having the Snickers.
Attorney General Charity Clark (16:24):
Yeah.
Cassie Gillespie (16:24):
Experience. But it is, I wanna, I wanna thank you and I wanna, you know, really validate how helpful it is to have you help us sort through it and remind us that like, you know, there are laws and there are processes and there are procedures and there are resources.
Attorney General Charity Clark (16:39):
mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Cassie Gillespie (16:40):
So Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (16:40):
I mean, I, I’ve tried in myself to feel openness and compassion for the idea that we are a very big country and there might be regional differences that.
Cassie Gillespie (16:51):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (16:52):
It’s like, well, in Vermont, I know that most of us kind of see things a certain way and having, having openness for another state, another region of this country, they might just approach things differently. But when it comes to the law, that’s a lot more cut and dried. And when it comes to discrimination, which the, the law addresses, that’s even clearer. It’s like, well, we all know that discriminating is bad. Well even these executive orders say discrimination is bad.
Cassie Gillespie (17:17):
Right?
Attorney General Charity Clark (17:17):
And they accuse DEI of, of fomenting discrimination.
New Speaker (17:20):
Being like a tool. Yeah.
New Speaker (17:20):
Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Exactly. So we all can agree that discrimination is bad, but it is really wild that the concept, and I, I think one of the reasons why DEI is not defined is it would be difficult to define it in a way that made it seem like it was discriminating <laugh>.
Cassie Gillespie (17:41):
Right.
Cassie Gillespie (17:42):
Because if you define it, you’re like, oh, this sounds like a good thing. Yeah. You know, so easier to to to just call it DEI make it sound like a boogeyman and not really unpack what it really means.
Cassie Gillespie (17:51):
Yeah. Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (17:52):
Diversity, equity and inclusion. Like all people deserve a fair shot.
Cassie Gillespie (17:56):
Yeah. Yeah. So in talking about these issues, it sounds like there’s some relevancy that’s particular to trans people. Can we dig into that a little bit?
Attorney General Charity Clark (18:04):
Yeah. I mean, the thing that really gets me is that it’s one thing in the DEI context to say, you know, you can’t admit people to this college this way, or you can’t hire people in your work this way, but these, this executive order that relates to trans people is basically saying you don’t exist.
Cassie Gillespie (18:26):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (18:27):
The cruelty, the it’s shameful and also doesn’t make any sense.
Attorney General Charity Clark (18:36):
Like, what are they afraid of?
Cassie Gillespie (18:38):
I know.
Attorney General Charity Clark (18:38):
Are they, are they afraid that, you know, more people are gonna wanna be successful drag queens entertaining us and having fun? Like literally what are they afraid of? And the things in that executive order are like truly offensive. I have wondered if, you know, we live in Vermont. I am sure Cassie, like you, you like me, you have lots of people in your life who are trans and I kind of don’t. I see them, but it’s not like on my mind a lot. I mean, sometimes I’m worried about them nowadays, but it’s not really on my mind that they’re trans. I’m, I just, but once I start counting up how many people in my life who are trans or non-binary.
Cassie Gillespie (19:13):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (19:13):
It is a pretty large number. And so when they describe trans people, I’m like that.
Attorney General Charity Clark (19:19):
Do you not know anyone who’s, I’m getting the impression that you might not know anyone.
Cassie Gillespie (19:23):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (19:23):
Who’s trans or non-binary? ‘Cause.
Cassie Gillespie (19:25):
yeah,
Attorney General Charity Clark (19:25):
This really does not describe them like at all <laugh>.
Cassie Gillespie (19:28):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (19:28):
So I think that’s the other weird disconnect is it almost is like they’re afraid of something and I don’t really know.
Cassie Gillespie (19:34):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (19:34):
Because it just, it really gets me so upset. So I wanted to make that distinction because I think it’s one thing to say, you know, you can’t do these things, but to say you can’t be who you are, you can’t be, this person is, it’s really offensive.
Cassie Gillespie (19:49):
Yeah. And it’s just, it’s, it feels to me, I’ll just put it in my own kind of first person narrative. It feels like such a total assault on, you know, they’ve really sort of checked the boxes, you know, like on women on L-G-B-T-Q people, on trans people, on people of color, on people who aren’t citizens.
Cassie Gillespie (20:08):
Like, it just feels like a really a really thorough, I don’t know attack, I guess, for lack of a better word.
Attorney General Charity Clark (20:19):
I mean, it, it, it’s right out in their slogan, make America Great Again.
Cassie Gillespie (20:23):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (20:23):
Make America great for people who aren’t those people back when those people couldn’t be seen or didn’t have rights.
Cassie Gillespie (20:32):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (20:32):
You know, you couldn’t, in my lifetime, I’m not even, I’m middle aged and, you know, women couldn’t have credit cards without their husbands.
Cassie Gillespie (20:40):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (20:41):
Okay. They couldn’t, they could be legally raped by their husbands. You know, there’s, it’s, it’s been a long journey that we’ve been on even these past 50 years, and there are obviously people who who wanna go back to 50 years ago. It’s, it’s just really sad.
Cassie Gillespie (21:01):
Well, yeah, I, I think it is really sad. And I, and I think that not to do like a poly positive wash on it all, but I think that one of the things that is empowering is having good, clear information when possible.
Cassie Gillespie (21:16):
And so, you know, it is so appreciative what you and your office are doing in terms of helping digest information and then letting Vermonters know where they stand in regards to the, these orders and other information like that.
Attorney General Charity Clark (21:29):
It’s, I mean, it’s our pleasure. We’re doing everything that we can not only to provide people with information, but also the, the reassurance I guess, of saying, this is what we’re doing.
Cassie Gillespie (21:38):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (21:38):
This is what can be done. You know, we can’t worry about the things we have no control over.
Cassie Gillespie (21:43):
Right.
Attorney General Charity Clark (21:44):
We have to focus on the things we do have control over. Yeah. And part of that, not to sound like so cheesy, but part of that is caring for each other.
Cassie Gillespie (21:51):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (21:52):
Standing up for each other, just saying the words and, and showing up for each other and.
Cassie Gillespie (21:57):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (21:57):
And it must be a really hard time to be, I mean, I’m a woman, I’m a straight woman, and so I, I, I feel like I, I don’t feel as attacked as some of my friends do, but I still am a woman and I do feel attacked and, and I resent that, that women are being used as a justification for some of this discrimination and some of these harmful approaches.
Cassie Gillespie (22:16):
Yeah.
Attorney General Charity Clark (22:16):
But I, I really, my heart goes out to people who identify as, you know, even more categories of being in the Trump administration’s target line.
Cassie Gillespie (22:27):
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you so much for coming by.
Attorney General Charity Clark (22:31):
Thanks for having me.
Cassie Gillespie (22:32):
It was our pleasure. And listeners, just a reminder that next time we’ll continue this conversation about DEI by talking to some folks who do DEI work at the university level, and we’ll get into what it looks like when your life’s work is under a microscope. Thanks.
Cassie Gillespie (22:53):
The Social Work Lens is produced by the University of Vermont’s Child Welfare Training Partnership and the State of Vermont. Our theme music is composed and performed by local band Brick Drop, and our sound production and engineering has been brought to you by Egan Media Productions. We’d also like to give a special thank you to our in-house administrative production assistant, Emma Baird. For the Social Work Lens, I’m Cassie Gillespie, and we’ll see you next time.