DEI Part 2: What Is Going On In Higher Education?

Transcript:

Paul Yoon (00:00):

Why choose to do this, to attack the institution of higher education in the way that this current right administration is trying to do. And I, you know, have lots of thoughts about that. But I do encourage our students and our employees to think about that question.

Cassie Gillespie (00:16):

Yeah.

Paul Yoon (00:17):

To, to try to encourage dialogue around that to see kind of what the evidence is, what the historical precedent is, and then to speculate a little bit as to why and for them to come up with their own conclusions about that.

Cassie Gillespie (00:33):

Hi, I am Cassie Gillespie and you’re listening to the Social Work Lens. The Social Work lens is a collaboration between the University of Vermont’s Child Welfare Training Partnership and the state of Vermont. Today we’re bringing you part two of a two-part series on diversity, equity, and inclusion, where DEI, and we’d like to note that these episodes are funded through a special innovation grant. If you miss part one of this series, feel free to go back and check out Vermont Attorney General Charity Clark’s episode, where she walks us through executive orders in general and pays special attention to those connected to DEI. Today we’re gonna continue the conversation by talking with some folks who work in universities as academics and as professionals doing DEI work. Okay, good morning. We certainly have the dream team in the studio today. So let’s start with some introductions and some welcomes. Let’s start with you Paul. Welcome Paul Yoon.

Paul Yoon (01:34):

Thank you. Good morning to you. My name is Paul. He and his pronouns really excited and honored to be here with all of you. I currently serve as the Chief Culture and Compliance Officer at Vermont State University, and I have the privilege of leading the Office of Culture and Institutional Excellence.

Cassie Gillespie (01:52):

Okay.

Paul Yoon (01:52):

We’ll talk a little bit about kind of the office and my, my work there at the university. In addition, I’m a partner with a small consultancy that’s Vermont based called CQ Strategies, and I’m excited to have been able to do that work now for just over 10 years. And I think the last thing I’ll share is that I’m also a doctoral student at the University of Vermont.

Cassie Gillespie (02:11):

Woo-Hoo.

Paul Yoon (02:11):

Currently in my fourth year and hoping to propose my dissertation within the next few months here. That’s

Cassie Gillespie (02:18):

Really exciting. Yeah. Maybe you can come back and tell us about it.

Paul Yoon (02:20):

Sure. Absolutely.

Cassie Gillespie (02:22):

<Laugh>. Awesome. Okay. And we’ll pass to you Dr. Jay Garvey.

 Jay Garvey (02:26):

Hi my name’s Jay Garvey and I see him pronouns. I’m the Friedman Hips Green and Gold Professor of Education at the University of Vermont, and I’m also the principal investigator for QTPiE, which stands for and Trans People in Education. The mission of our research team is to educate, advocate, and build coalitions in solidarity with and trans people and education.

Cassie Gillespie (02:50):

Alright, and last but certainly not least, the admittable. Dr. Tiffany Spencer.

Dr. Tiffany Spencer (02:55):

Hi, Everyone. I’m Tiffany Spencer. I use she and her pronouns. I am an assistant dean for advocacy and access and strategic impact in the College of Education and Social Services at the University of Vermont. I’m also a faculty member in our higher education and Student Affairs Administration program. And so my work is really been situated in thinking about higher education as it pertains to equity. And I’ve done this work for, oh, quite some time now.

Cassie Gillespie (03:23):

Thank you, Tiffany. Okay. So welcome everyone, as the three of you know, and as our listeners know, we’ve been using most of our episodes this season to unpack the practices and the policies of the current administration and the impact that’s having on Vermonters on the ground. So we’ve done a number of episodes about immigration. We’ve dug into L-G-B-T-Q-I-A issues. We’ve talked about human rights broadly. But we’re finally getting to kind of peel back this onion a little bit, which is digging into DEI and higher education. So thank you again for coming today. I’m so excited to have all of your perspectives to help us talk through this. I think a place to start that might be helpful is to unpack what DEI is. And that may sound, you know, sort of rudimentary, but the current administration has really made it a priority to dismantle DEI programs and specifically at the higher education level. And they talk about DEI as woke or distracting, even illegal or discriminatory. So could we jump in with hearing a little bit about, like, what is DEI to you and how does it show up in your role? How do you make sense of it?

Paul Yoon (04:37):

So I think it’s always important, right, Cassie, to talk about the acronym itself, diversity, equity and inclusion. And I think one of the things that I think often about is summarized in a quote that’s often contributed to somebody named Arthur Chan. And the quote is “diversity is a fact Inclusion is a choice. Equity is a practice, and belonging is an outcome.” And I talk about diversity, equity, and inclusion in that context, ’cause I think it’s helpful to understand each and every one of the components of that kind of, first of all, and to talk a little bit about why it is that we do the work that we do in this space. But the other piece that I just wanted to kind of acknowledge right off the bat is the historical kind of nature, if you will, the historical need for this work. You know, for much of our country’s history, I think it is fair to say that there have been inequitable outcomes for certain groups of individuals throughout our nation’s history. And I think that people like us, the people who are of course in higher education, who are trying to do this work, have been trying to address what those historical inequities have been. At some point it’s been called diversity, equity, and inclusion. At other points, it’s been called something very, very different. But at the end of the day, the, the impetus, like the reason for this work has been to help ensure that everybody that we serve, our students, our employees, our community members are able to really thrive in our institutions. And I think that for us, that’s really always been the, the north star, if you will, the guiding force That’s really helpful, Paul. I’m in this moment thinking that my philosophies that are guided by DEI emphasize inherent worth of all people and the dignity of persons. And my practice and approach is rooted in an ecological perspective. Understanding how my internal sense of self, my relationship with other people, my experience at an institution and within the broader state of Vermont greatly shaped my perspectives on diversity, equity, and inclusion.

Cassie Gillespie (06:42):

<Affirmative>. Tiffany, do you wanna jump in?

Dr. Tiffany Spencer (06:44):

Yeah. You know, Paul mentioned the word authenticity. And I think for me, when I think about DEI, DEIJ, DEIJB whatever kinds of words you might choose to use in representing diversity, equity, inclusion, justice, belonging I think about the ability to be able to, to show up authentically in every kind of sphere of life. We’re talking about education specifically, but really the ability to be able to, to show up authentically. And if you think about that as it pertains, to education, I think that that context has different kind of implications of the ways in which folks feel like they can show up authentically.

Cassie Gillespie (07:25):

That’s exactly where I was headed with that is why is this especially important? Or is it especially important in higher education?

 Jay Garvey (07:32):

Well, I think higher ed is a site of discovery. And so when there is worldview pluralism, there’s a deepening complexity of how we understand the world. And when everyone feels affirmed and engaged in the learning experience, then it benefits everyone. And I think the responsibility that we have as educators is to curate an environment through policies, practices, resources that enable that exchange of ideas. And so really our responsibility as educators is to make more equitable and inclusive learning environments so that people can fully express their full beings.

Cassie Gillespie (08:11):

Yeah,

Paul Yoon (08:12):

And I would just add that I think for, for much of our nation’s history, higher education has not been an accessible institution for many people. And, you know, we can obviously extend this to women historically. We can extend this, of course, to communities of color, to and trans communities, et cetera. And I think that you know, one of the reasons that this is so important is because, you know, we’ve been trying now for what, a little over a hundred years to try to help make sure that these institutions that have historically been used for individuals to be able to generate more income over the course of their lifetimes that has allowed them to have kind of influence over the, the direction of our country. Making sure that more people right. Have been able to access that I think has been again, a really important thing for us.

Cassie Gillespie (08:58):

Yeah.

Paul Yoon (08:59):

One piece I just wanted to emphasize here though, is that there are many people who of course, do not go out and get degrees or experience in higher education. And I want to say that that is okay.

Cassie Gillespie (09:10):

Yeah, yeah.

Paul Yoon (09:11):

There are obviously many people who, who we need to do lots of different types of work. And, you know, a part of our work, I think by extension, is also helping to ensure that those other spaces are also being open and accessible to all people as well.

Cassie Gillespie (09:26):

Right.

Paul Yoon (09:26):

So just wanted to emphasize that.

Cassie Gillespie (09:28):

Yeah, I appreciate that.

Dr. Tiffany Spencer (09:29):

I was just talking with my students in class this week about the history of higher education, actually. And something that they were, were fascinated by was close to the sixties, higher education was quite popular as a societal kind of endeavor. And that people really valued higher education to solve sociological and kind of things that were going on in the world. So things like the space race, or really thinking about social activism and things like that, that the people really thought about higher education as being an important part of the ways in which people thought about how to approach challenges. And I think higher education is in a kind of a different iteration now but something that is really important is that it really requires folks that have different perspectives and identities and backgrounds to really think about what that might look like. So I think it’s really important to, to think about who is invited to be part of the conversation when we’re thinking about things that really impact our, our lives today, like reducing poverty, our climate change. I think it’s really important that participation of a wide range of voices and identities and perspectives is really critical to, to thinking about how we could actually shape how we solve really national and global kinds of initiatives and things like that.

Cassie Gillespie (10:53):

Okay. So with that kind of groundwork set, my big hope for, or one of my hopes for our conversation today, so we can kind of pull back the curtain a little bit on what’s happening around DEI in higher education, understanding there’s no one response and universities are all responding differently. And even within universities, you know, there’s different departments and roles and initiatives, but I tend to hear these two like views of what people think is happening, and they’re pretty polarized. So one view is like, there’s extreme censorship. We can’t use words anymore, we’re having to change syllabus, syllabi, and get rid of texts. And that that’s coming down directly from the federal government. And that if universities don’t comply with that, they lose funding. And then the other really kind of alternative perspective is woke, people are complaining, it’s all fine, nothing’s really different. And so obviously those are over simplistic and really differing perspectives, but I’d love to hear from all of you about like what’s happening in your day to day on the ground, and how has your role actually changed or has it changed over the last, you know, maybe 12 months?

 Jay Garvey (12:00):

I just wanna briefly underscore why this question matters. When the US Presidential administration restricts conversations based on quote unquote gender ideology, it hinders progress in education, healthcare, housing, and other public sectors of human life. The denial of the existence of trans and non-binary people has profound impact on medical education, on access to schooling and housing. And so when there is this executive order that isn’t law shaping policy at the state levels, there’s going to be vast disparities in how different institutions and states respond. So, for example, Texas recently restricting a faculty member’s discussions about trans and non-binary people in their classroom, or the changing landscape of sex education in K-12. Yeah. Now in Vermont and California, for example, we have more inclusive sex education that mandates gender diversity as a foundation of its curricula. I think it’s gonna be really interesting conversation when state rights are in contrast to federal decrees.

Cassie Gillespie (13:13):

Yeah.

 Jay Garvey (13:13):

And I’m curious to see how states and politicians and educators and administrators are going to respond to that. Now, as a white person, I’m trying to exercise humility and also the foundation of my voice. So when folks say just code switch and use different language.

Cassie Gillespie (13:35):

Yeah.

 Jay Garvey (13:35):

And just repackage it into something more palatable, given the current sociopolitical climate, it feels deeply triggering for me as a person, because it’s basically saying who you are isn’t palatable. So we’re gonna have to just re-shift our language around that. And I also want to exercise humility as a white person in saying, I have such rights and privileges to be loud and angry about erasure as a white person. And so I’m trying to listen to others, especially communities of color, who are saying these subversive techniques have been utilized for generations. And there is a place and a time to be loud and upset, and a place to be subversive. So I’m just in that middle ground right now trying to figure out how I’m navigating it.

Cassie Gillespie (14:19):

Can I ask you to expand on something? Some of our listeners might not be familiar with the idea of code switching and kind of repackaging. Can you speak a little bit about what that is and like how you might get the messages that we need to do that?

 Jay Garvey (14:32):

Some words can feel threatening or triggering to people, or they may not be palatable or acceptable by others. And so by welcoming people in or by being required to people use different language so others don’t feel threatened.

Cassie Gillespie (14:49):

Thank You.

 Jay Garvey (14:49):

Sure.

Paul Yoon (14:50):

I’d love to build on two quick initial points and then I’ll, I’ll add a third if that’s okay. Great. I think one of the first things that I just wanted to say that’s so challenging about this particular time in our nation’s history is that what we’re seeing right now is a patchwork across our nation where different states are choosing to respond to different, whether they’re executive actions or whether they’re simple guidance documents, for example, that are coming out from the Department of Education. And so we see lots of different things that are being instituted on a State by State basis. And again, the challenge with that is wherever you are kind of happen to be going to school, you might be getting a materially different experience, or wherever you might be choosing to go to college or, or university, you might be having a materially different experience based on that. Locale. Yeah. I’m so grateful. This is the second point. I’m so grateful to, to live and to work in a state like Vermont, as you were saying, because we will continue, for example, to honor an individual’s gender identity. We will continue to protect people’s rights in that regard. And that, unfortunately is not the case. And I’m, I’m glad that you just mentioned the case in Texas because the decision for that specific administration to choose to restrict that specific faculty member’s academic freedom mm-hmm I think that’s important to really emphasize here in that regard, to be able to have a conversation about gender identity, and then for a dean of a university As well as that department chair to be removed from their positions because an individual student’s video that went viral led right. To this, those are dangerous.

Cassie Gillespie (16:33):

Yeah.

Paul Yoon (16:33):

In so many different respects and I think that by, by even misappropriating, right? By misquoting the quote unquote president’s laws, first of all, I think it bears to continue to emphasize that the president does not make laws <laugh>. That is not the role of the executive in our government.

Cassie Gillespie (16:52):

Yeah.

Paul Yoon (16:53):

The legislative branch, right. Drafts designs right, and passes laws that are then or bills I should say, excuse me, that are then signed into law. But again, providing this type of power, if you will, in that way, I think really again, sends a chilling message to so many people all across our country and across the world as well, because I think for many years we have been trying to be a better example of what it means to honor academic freedom and to allow for this free kind of flow of you know, of ideas and exchanges. The third thing, and this is the last thing I’ll just mention really quickly, is that there’s absolutely been an evolution of my work at the university over the course of the past. I’ve only been there now for about 11 months, so not quite a year <laugh>. But there’s definitely been an evolution in response, you know, to things that have been happening at the federal level. And the piece that I just wanted to emphasize with, with this is that it’s so complicated because as Jay you were mentioning, there have been executive actions that have been signed. There have been memos again that have been sent out. But as of right now, federal judges have effectively ruled, right, that all of them, by and large that are targeting things like gender identity or what schools or should, or should not be doing with regards to diversity, equity, and inclusion are illegal. And yes, this is obviously gonna make its way up to the Supreme Court, but at the moment, all of these guidance documents are, are illegal. And that’s I think something to be acknowledged. Yeah. ’cause we’re still having to deal with them in some ways. But we’ll see kind of how they how they are going to be playing out once the Supreme Court has the opportunity to to make a decision on them

Cassie Gillespie (18:40):

To weigh in. Thank you.

Dr. Tiffany Spencer (18:43):

I’ll just come back to maybe kind of where Jay began, that, the human component. When folks have to negotiate identity and have to do things like code switch or continue to have to think about the ways in which you’re able to, to describe or not describe or identify yourselves that that comes at a cost of your, your own person and personhood and identity. And so I think a lot of the space that we find ourselves in feels like a lot of negotiating and having to think about what’s okay and what’s not okay to say. And that’s not being able to show up authentically, right? That’s having to, to navigate through language and executive orders and, and things that really compromise authenticity and identity. And so I think that that shows up in the work that we do in thinking about how do we show up ourselves as human, and how do we show up for the students and the community members and the faculty and the staff and supporting them in those ways as well.

Cassie Gillespie (19:51):

Yeah.

 Jay Garvey (19:52):

Well said. I think a lot about what I lose of myself when my identities are always on guard. And I think Tiffany’s point completely underscores that I want to add, you know, some listeners may work in the corporate sector or in the private sector, and I think that inherent worth and dignity is enough to care about this. And making people feel less than their full selves has profound impact on innovation and discovery and public goods and the private sector. And so that’s why we also care about it in higher education, is we are knowledge producers. And when we limit folks full selves, it limits discovery and innovation as well.

Cassie Gillespie (20:37):

We talk about this a lot in social work, the psychological safety aspect.

 Jay Garvey (20:40):

Yeah.

Cassie Gillespie (20:40):

But if you’re having to hide and not share about parts of who you are and, and what you do, it profoundly impacts how you can show up as a full participating partner.

 Jay Garvey (20:51):

Yeah.

Cassie Gillespie (20:51):

So, absolutely.

 Jay Garvey (20:52):

Yeah.

Cassie Gillespie (20:52):

And if you’re engaged in a service profession and you’re serving others, It can, it can create ethical vulnerabilities too.

 Jay Garvey (21:00):

Yeah.

Cassie Gillespie (21:00):

How has your, or let me ask, have your conversations with students changed over the last year with young people?

 Jay Garvey (21:08):

I think students have a pretty keen understanding of academic freedom and freedom of speech. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. I think the fear comes in with students and frankly with faculty, staff and administrators in higher ed, that the federal government is using other means to make people comply with these unlawful executive orders. So, as Paul mentioned, even if these cases go through the Supreme Court and they are knocked down, the federal government is still using different levers to force institutions to comply. Whether it’s threatening the enrollment of international students or federal funding for financial aid or research grants through the National Institutes of Health, or the National Science Foundation, the federal government is using every by every means possible to lessen the impact and scope of higher education right now. And students are very informed about that. So, of course, students of color, and trans students, students with disabilities and disabled students, et cetera, feel the pressure of themselves in the current moment. And we cared so deeply about that. And they also recognize that the sector of higher education is being attacked, and they’re investing a lot of their resources, their family’s capacities to be there. They hold the hope of higher education as a site for liberation and justice for themselves and their communities. And when the entire sector is being threatened, it’s a threat to them as well. So, I, I think students are very educated about those aspects.

Cassie Gillespie (22:35):

Yeah.

Paul Yoon (22:36):

And I would just add really quickly that, you know, for me, one of the big questions just in response to this is why, why choose to do this, to attack the institution of higher education in the way that this current right. Administration is trying to do? And I, you know, have lots of thoughts about that. But I do encourage our students and our employees to think about that question.

Cassie Gillespie (22:57):

Yeah.

Paul Yoon (22:57):

To, to try to encourage dialogue around that to see kind of what the evidence is, what the historical precedent is, and then to speculate a little bit as to why and for them to come up with their own conclusions about that. But the, the short answer to your question is absolutely, things have shifted over the course of the past year.

Cassie Gillespie (23:14):

Yeah.

Dr. Tiffany Spencer (23:15):

Absolutely. Students want to know why I, they are absolutely paying attention. They are listening, they are researching, they are informed. They want to understand why people aren’t standing up for them. And so I think that that why question for me is connected to why do, do they not see folks that are in positions of power, quote unquote, doing things that are able to help them exist in higher education in life and society? I also think that students feel both a sense of empowerment as well as fear about what it looks like to step into, for me, my lenses, education and social services, but to step into professions like teaching and counseling and social work in, in a society that right now doesn’t feel very welcoming for a lot of reasons. So for them, it’s thinking about can I do work that really matters and is meaningful to me in a place that maybe doesn’t value me?

 Jay Garvey (24:27):

I just wanted to share a quick specific example of that.

Cassie Gillespie (24:30):

Yes.

 Jay Garvey (24:30):

There was a student that I had the opportunity to work with earlier this summer who was, but was in a field that had traditionally really not been open to people. And that’s within kind of data science computer science. And, you know, one of the questions that they were really struggling with was, you know, I’ve finally been able to get access to a space like this as a student where I, I haven’t felt like I have always been welcome or allowed to be in this space.

Cassie Gillespie (25:01):

Yeah. Yeah.

 Jay Garvey (25:02):

And the question that they were asking themselves with, do I continue to endure the culture that I’m perceiving of? Maybe it it’s still some latent hostility or just not being as open as, as they would like it to be, because I, I’m here and I, I represent the progress, if you will, that has been made, or do I choose to leave this and, and work in other spaces where I can help to create more space.

Cassie Gillespie (25:27):

Right.

 Jay Garvey (25:28):

For individuals. And you know, this, this young person I think was maybe 19, if not 20. And I just was thinking like, gosh, you know, how much the field needs. An individual like that.

Cassie Gillespie (25:38):

Yeah.

 Jay Garvey (25:38):

And also, gosh, these are really big existential questions that a relatively young person is, is grappling with. But the fact that they were even contemplating how they could do the most good for the most amount of people, particularly those from their kind of specific marginalized community.

Cassie Gillespie (25:56):

Yeah.

 Jay Garvey (25:56):

I thought was admirable. And, and really again just so much respect Right. For that person as well. Yeah.

Cassie Gillespie (26:03):

I’m gonna ask a question that you’re welcome to answer and not answer, but I’m curious, one of the ways we see a lot of shifting around this issue is the desire to rename things. And I’m wondering if any of you wanna share either examples or your thoughts about how you have, how your offices have or haven’t renamed themselves, and how you’re kind of thinking about that issue.

Paul Yoon (26:29):

So when I was hired at the university last October, I was hired as the Chief Diversity Officer, and I led the Office of Diversity, equity, inclusion, and Social Justice. And as I mentioned at the top, my title is now different, right. Chief Culture and Compliance Officer and Office of Culture and Institutional Excellence. I think that, you know, for much of the last 11 months or so, the conversation around changing your name has come up at various points. It’s honestly, it’s something that I discussed with the president of our university during my interview process at the time. Right. We weren’t sure whom was gonna be elected in November. We weren’t sure how things were gonna be playing out after a new administration took office. And I’ll just note that it’s I think of note that, you know, these changes just occurred over the past few weeks. Partially it’s because of an expansion of my office’s kind of responsibilities right now. For example, I now oversee a position, our Title IX and Protected Rights Coordinator position. And so there’s again, been this expansion to kind of involve other aspects of compliance in that regard. There’s also been some more aspects of accessibility and the new federal guidelines that institutions like ours are being held to having to Help our university comply with those new guidelines all speaks to kind of why that there was this right. Re-Envisioning of my title, and then of course of of the office’s name as well. I think, you know, in, in, in short though, the goal of our work remains the same. I alluded to this earlier, but it’s really to help ensure that our students and our employees thrive everywhere in a classroom outside of a classroom, in a residence hall, you know, wherever it might be. And I’m really grateful that we continue to be able to, to have that as our focus and think about all of the different ways in which we can show up for our community in that way. But yeah, you know, there are many, many, many institutions, many, many offices, many individuals right. Whose positions have had to evolve over the course of the past 12 or so months now. And I I imagine that there will be even more that, that think about this work a little bit differently.

Cassie Gillespie (28:36):

Yeah.

 Jay Garvey (28:38):

Cassie, your question makes me think a lot about one’s intentions and audience, or to whom they’re speaking. And so I’ll give a couple of examples. If my intention is to liberate myself to feel completely whole as Jason, and to recognize my inherent worth, I’m gonna use different language. I’m gonna use words like a happy homosexual, the quantitative queer, or even faculty, because those terms feel really good for me. Yeah. I feel liberated. I feel out of the closet. I feel whole, if my intention is to broaden my base, broaden coalitions, find co-conspirators to deepen my community, I might use different words, but my intention of bringing people together, educating and advocating for communities doesn’t change. And so on some days I care deeply that people are policing my language, and other days I don’t care. ’cause I can use subversive means to get what I want to achieve, to achieve my intentions. Yeah. My, my perspective feels different as a faculty member because I can play around with things in a really safe, professional environment as a tenured faculty. Yeah. Which is a gift of academic freedom. I also think that yeah. Language for me as a person can be subversive. It can be fluid and non-committal. It can be deeply personal. So my, like fluid perspective treats language like a playground sometimes.

Cassie Gillespie (30:12):

Yeah.

 Jay Garvey (30:12):

And then other times I care deeply about people restricting my playground.

Cassie Gillespie (30:17):

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Tiffany Spencer (30:19):

This question feels hard. Because I think I, I deeply think that words matter, and Jay was again talking about code switching to a certain extent. And I think about that. I feel like I am in a place where I have to often think about my language, and I do think about the language that I’m using, because ultimately I want to be able to best walk alongside support and serve students, faculty, and staff that value resources and support that I can help offer. And so for me, it’s kind of holding both of those tensions honestly. That it feels like in some, in some ways that I’m exerting energy that could better be used doing some other things. And then sometimes it feels like that energy needs to be used in that way to make sure that as I name, that I can still help support those folks that I really fear, feel deeply about. So I’ll just end with where I started that, for me, language really does matter and it really does have impact. And so having to think about the words that I use can be pretty sad and defeating.

Cassie Gillespie (31:47):

Yeah. And I think I heard you saying there, I just wanna pull out and amplify that. There’s also an aspect of it, it, you didn’t use this term, but it, it wastes your time or it takes your time or your attention away from other work. But I think I also heard the duality there of, and at times, putting your attention into code switching or managing language, or just thinking about language is a tool. I think all three of you talked about this in different ways that allows you to sustain in the work you’re doing. Does that feel accurate?

Dr. Tiffany Spencer (32:17):

I think so. Cassie, I, and I will also just name that aspects of that work aren’t just unique to this particular time. Just as Paul gave a really great context of some of the historical aspects of A DEI work those aspects aren’t new necessarily. I think they feel different in this particular moment, however.

Paul Yoon (32:38):

Yeah.

Cassie Gillespie (32:39):

Okay. Well, let’s, I hope this doesn’t sound like a really hard left turn into like holly positive land, but I do want to make some space for the three of you to share. Like what’s keeping you going? What’s your, what are you hopeful about and what are you seeing out there that people also need to know is happening related to this work in higher ed? What sustains you?

Paul Yoon (33:01):

Recently? I’ve written about this notion that our President, president Berg shared with our executive leadership team late last fall. And for us at the Vermont State University, really what’s at stake here is helping to save public higher education in the state of Vermont, along with our colleagues at the University of Vermont and the Community College of Vermont. And for me, that’s such an inspiration because I know for a fact that there are thousands and thousands and thousands of individuals who are looking at our institutions as a place to come for yes, of course, credentials, degrees, experiences, but really the hope for a better future for themselves, for their families and their communities. And so, what’s at stake here is helping to ensure that the thousands of people from Vermont and outside of the state of Vermont are able to continue to access a high quality, affordable education to help make this world a better place. And again, for some people it really is, you know, just for themselves in some ways and for their families, but I do believe that by extension, right, it helps society in that regard.

Cassie Gillespie (34:08):

Yeah.

Paul Yoon (34:08):

And so for me, just the, the inspiration that I get is, you know, how can we work as hard as we possibly can to help ensure that this institution is successful, that we as higher education professionals continue to be able to provide these types of high quality learning experiences and right. Working experiences for others as well. And so, you know, for me at least, that’s what gets me up in the morning.

Cassie Gillespie (34:32):

Yeah. Well, that feels like a pretty good reason. <Laugh>,

Dr. Tiffany Spencer (34:36):

All, all of my, my time in school, my, my career has been in, in higher ed. I’m in higher ed because I care a lot about access to education. And so for me, that that’s my why, right? That I want to really think about what it means to create a space for folks who want to pursue post-secondary education and opportunities. I wanna hold a space for folks who, who haven’t had opportunities for a variety of reasons to be able to, to be part of higher education and other post-secondary opportunities. So for me, I think that, that, that’s still why, I do the work. And then for me, I think what also keeps me going is keeps folks like Jay and Paul, who I know also care deeply about the things I just named. Yeah. I think it’s community, honestly, folks that that fill my cup, that I know care about me and care about things that matter to me and things that I value. I think that keeps me going, honestly,

Cassie Gillespie (35:46):

It’s collective care. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. It’s always the instant mm-hmm <affirmative>. Thanks, Tiffany

 Jay Garvey (35:50):

In the beginning I talked about like an ecological perspective to this conversation. And what I mean by that is that I think about this for myself personally, and, and I think about it for relationships I have with people. And I think about it for like, our community and higher ed as a sector. And so, like, the blessings that I think of are kind of in those layers. So for me personally, I’m challenged to be scrappy, innovative, and subversive. And that’s allowing me to grow in my worldview and my perspective. And so I’m grateful for that. I’m grateful for the opportunity to challenge my beliefs and to expand how I think about education. The second that both Tiffany and Paul mentioned is seeing this gorgeous community care and mutual aid happening for people who are feeling threatened or attacked, we as a community are responding collectively and saying, I got you. Whether it’s through demonstrations in activism or policy reform or conversations like this, it’s nice to know that there are like other people in our community who are standing shoulder to shoulder with us. And then the last is about the sector of higher ed with humility. I think many people feel left out of the opportunities of higher education. And I know that’s true for a lot of family members and community members of mine who are working class, who feel like higher education is subsidized by governments and isn’t accessible to them. And the promise of economic mobility is no longer there for them with higher education.

Cassie Gillespie (37:23):

Yeah.

 Jay Garvey (37:24):

It’s a moment for us, even if these attacks on DEI feel so threatening to our sector and ourselves and our communities, we can respond with humility and knowledge and curiosity and say, what can we change about ourselves so that more people feel the promise of higher education? It’s a good moment for us to just step back and say, what can I learn from this? And how can I benefit my community?

Cassie Gillespie (37:46):

Yeah. What can we do different?

 Jay Garvey (37:48):

Yeah.

Cassie Gillespie (37:48):

Very cool. Well, we’ve been chatting for a while. We should probably start to wind down. I’m wondering if there’s anything left that any of you really wanna make sure we cover or share, or if there’s a closing thought you wanna share.

Paul Yoon (38:02):

So, Jay, as you were talking, I wanted to share. I, I’m really grateful that as an undergraduate I had the opportunity, to take a course that changed the direction of my life. The, course was titled The History and Development of Racism in the United States of America. It was taught by two white men, Horace Selden and Paul Marcus. At the time that Horace was teaching the class that I took, he had been teaching it for 22 consecutive years, 44 consecutive semesters.

Cassie Gillespie (38:29):

Wow.

Paul Yoon (38:29):

And Paul has been his co-teacher for about 10 years. At the time,

Cassie Gillespie (38:33):

Where did you take that course?

Paul Yoon (38:34):

As an undergraduate at Boston College.

Cassie Gillespie (38:36):

Okay.

Paul Yoon (38:37):

And I’m so grateful for that opportunity because towards the end of that first semester that I spent with that class, they challenged all of us to think about how it is that we might be, what Abram has kind of popularized as being an active anti-racist. And at the time, I really, honestly did not see myself as being a part of that equation, if you will. I didn’t feel like I had the knowledge. I didn’t feel like I had the skills. I didn’t really even have the awareness, I feel like, to feel like I could be an active part in this in this work. But over time, I have grown to understand that this is really my life’s purpose. And what I wanted to share was that I have immense hope that our country can be a better version of itself. We have been struggling for, you know several hundred years now to be better. And we’ve, I think made a lot of progress. And what’s I think most jarring about this particular moment in our nation’s history is that we see some of that progress, right. Eroding. And even with this erosion, though I still have, or I’m still trying to keep the long view in mind that, you know, in my life, we hope, I hope right, we’ll be in a better place. But I, I recognize that, you know, by the time I die things will likely not be in the place that I personally would like them to be. And that is okay in the sense that it has taken us many generations to get here. It’s taken many generations of people agitating, of people voting, of people marching, of people educating to get us to where we are right now. And I know I need to continue to do everything that I can with every breath that I have to do those things so that my children or this next generation will continue to carry that torch and continue to help inspire our country to be a better version of itself. And obviously, we are not, I would argue, the best country in the world. We’re not the perfect example of democracy or anything along those lines. But I think we need to continue to strive to, to be an example of what it might be like if we as a people can come together and help our species, help our planet really again, thrive. So I, I wanted to share that because at, at the core of all of this is this maybe naive hope, right? That we can be better. But that is also what inspires me.

Cassie Gillespie (40:59):

I’m Inspired just listening to you <laugh>. Woo. Chills. Yeah. <Laugh>.

 Jay Garvey (41:05):

I think that my philosophy of education and my faith both guide me to say that everyone is welcome in this conversation and for the opportunities of education. And with that approach, my aim is to develop a coalition of the willing to welcome anyone who wants to be a part of this movement or conversation, however big or however small in any way possible. Whether it’s being a story listener, sharing your own story, advocating for institutional or state policies, promoting mutual aid and community care, or demonstrating or anything in between. The power and agency that we have is through the collective. And so the more open we are, again, about our intentions and with whom we wanna be in community, the more seen we’ll all feel in this dialogue.

Cassie Gillespie (41:56):

Awesome.

Dr. Tiffany Spencer (41:58):

As Paul was sharing his story, it made me think of when I was doing my doctorate work at the University of Georgia. I was a part of this program called the, the Georgia College Advising Corps. And the premise was that we trained recent college undergraduates to be in high schools throughout the state of Georgia. And these were schools that were low resource, that had a high percentages in populations of first generation students students of color rural students all of the above. And the students that we trained, we trained them to be what we called college advisors. But really their mission was to be in those spaces and to create a post-secondary culture to really invite students and families to dream of possibilities of what could be next after high school. And that could be workforce, that could be college, that could be two year college, that could be military, it could be cosmetology school. It really was thinking about lots of different options that maybe students and families hadn’t really considered. And what was fascinating and really inspiring to me, is that we were able to really shift culture in those spaces quite rapidly. We had students that were applying to two and four year institutions that was increasing steadily every year. We had students that were pursuing different kinds of vocational opportunities. Really amazing things that happen kind of very quickly. So I do think that it’s possible to do the both, and that we can have space and think about what it means to kind of, to, to do our work in this kind of unique time that we find ourselves in, but we can also be innovative and, and make change, change can actually happen. So I think I wanna to latch onto, to Paul’s kind of optimism, even though I don’t always feel optimistic, to be honest, to really think about how can I be part of things that are actually action forward? Because the, for me, it can’t always be the slow and steady. When’s the day? Like, to me, it feels imminent that we do something now. Shake it up.

Cassie Gillespie (44:21):

Shake it up. Okay. I think that’s where we’ll leave it. Thank you so much for your time and your perspectives and your words. It’s been a real honor to sit in and kind of listen to the three of you connect with each other about this. Thank You.

Paul Yoon (44:33):

Thank you.

 Jay Garvey (44:34):

Thanks.

Cassie Gillespie (44:38):

The social work lens is produced by the University of Vermont’s Child Welfare Training Partnership, and the state of Vermont. Our theme music is composed and performed by local band Brick Drop, and our sound production and engineering has been brought to you by Egan Media Productions. We’d also like to give a special thank you to our in-house administrative production assistant Emma Baird for the social work lens. I’m Cassie Gillespie, and we’ll see you next time.