Human Rights & the Work of VT’s Human Rights Commission with Big Hartman

Transcript:

Mix Big Hartman (00:00):

it’s because the work is so hard.

Cassie Gillespie (00:03):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (00:04):

I have had to see so many people now be harmed.

Mix Big Hartman (00:11):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (00:11):

Doing this work.

Cassie Gillespie (00:12):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (00:13):

It, it’s a high burnout reality.

Cassie Gillespie (00:18):

Hello, I’m Cassie Gillespie and you’re listening to the Social Work Lens. The Social Work lens is a collaboration between the University of Vermont’s Child Welfare Training partnership and the state of Vermont. Today we have the executive director of Vermont’s Human Rights Commission here in the studio with us. So let me welcome Mix Big Hartman. Hello. Big

Mix Big Hartman (00:43):

Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

Cassie Gillespie (00:44):

Thanks for coming. Would you mind introducing yourself, telling our listeners a little bit about you?

Mix Big Hartman (00:50):

Sure. my name is Big. I use they them pronouns. I have been the executive director and general counsel at the State of Vermont Human Rights Commission for about a year and a half, almost two years now. Before that, I was working as a staff attorney investigator at the commission. I’ve been a practicing attorney here in Vermont for 20 years almost graduate from Vermont Law School and just you know, working really hard lately.

Cassie Gillespie (01:23):

Yeah. <laugh>

Cassie Gillespie (01:25):

Wild times, I would imagine to be the executive director and general counsel at the Human Rights Commission.

Mix Big Hartman (01:31):

It’s, amazing to be, and I am so grateful, to be in a position where I feel like with all of the challenges that we’re facing, like globally and nationally, to be able to be in a position where I feel like I can do some good.

Cassie Gillespie (01:49):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (01:50):

And and have an impact for the folks that I have always wanted to be like in service to throughout my career. You know, some people go into the practice of law just to like, as an intellectual exercise and because they wanna make good money and, you know, do transactional work. I never had that thought about it. I came into the, into the study of law because I just knew that systemic improvements were needed. I could see how much injustice there was in the world, and I wanted to be a part of making change within the system.

Cassie Gillespie (02:30):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (02:30):

And it’s so cool to reflect on the person that I was when I was applying for law school and thinking about the kind of work I would do as a lawyer, and that I sit now, you know, all those years later really in a position to do the things that I dreamed about doing back then.

Cassie Gillespie (02:46):

Oh My gosh. I bet. Like, what would you say to that person if your two selves could talk? I know that’s the most social work question of all time <laugh>.

Mix Big Hartman (02:54):

Well, you know, I have talked to that part of me <laugh>.

Cassie Gillespie (02:56):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (02:58):

Over the years. And I think you know, in, in my, so I, I went, you know, I had like one year after college where I worked, and then I was studying to go to law school. And during that period, and during law school, there were a lot of folks in my life who lovingly caringly were like, Hey, you know, you should probably like, just get a good job <laugh> and like not be talking about revolution and social change all this time. And I really didn’t allow myself to be swayed by that ever for a second. And so there isn’t much I would go back and tell myself then.

Cassie Gillespie (03:46):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (03:47):

Because I had a vision all along and I, I just followed that path even though the path didn’t go the way I thought it would.

Mix Big Hartman (03:56):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (03:56):

You know, I thought it was gonna be this straight line and it totally wasn’t.

Cassie Gillespie (04:01):

It never Is <laugh>.

Mix Big Hartman (04:03):

But it, it still led me like to this moment that I feel like I’m in the role that I was, that I was meant to be in. And.

Cassie Gillespie (04:12):

That’s awesome. Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (04:13):

None of it was an accident. It was completely purposeful. And that little, like 20 something year old.

Cassie Gillespie (04:20):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (04:21):

You know, everyone said, you’re so idealistic. Like, you know, stop being that way. I’m so proud of that part of me that just didn’t even feel convinced by anything anyone was saying to me outside of like, what my mission was.

Cassie Gillespie (04:40):

That is so cool.

Mix Big Hartman (04:41):

Yeah.

Cassie Gillespie (04:42):

And so our listeners are, they’re social workers or child welfare workers. They’re also students, social work students and folks, you know, at UVM. So I think that might be inspirational to some of them. So, very cool.

Mix Big Hartman (04:54):

I hope so. I know I was inspired by the folks who came before me.

Cassie Gillespie (05:00):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (05:00):

In the movement. And there were, you know, and there’s such a range of work that needs to be done, you know, so whatever part of the world that you’re touching, there’s, there’s good you can do there.

Cassie Gillespie (05:12):

That’s such an important message. For those folks who are in, you know, serving or helping professions, wherever their entry point is. I think that, there might be a little bit of mystery about what the Human Rights Commission does. So what if we start kind of at the beginning and you can let people know, like, what is the Vermont Human Rights Commission? What do you all do? What should people know about you?

Mix Big Hartman (05:38):

Yeah. So the Vermont Human Rights Commission is an agency of Vermont State Government. And we are a very small team. We have seven positions, seven staff members who are tasked with primarily enforcing Vermont’s Fair Housing and Public Accommodations Act. That’s the main thing that we do. And those are anti-discrimination protections for people in their housing, for all people in their housing, and for all people who are going out and using. And out in the world in places of public accommodation. Places of public accommodation are like everything that serves the public. Everything that’s open to the public. So it’s your basic stores, hotels, restaurants, schools, any government entity. It’s extremely broad.

Cassie Gillespie (06:30):

Okay.

Mix Big Hartman (06:31):

It can include like the police departments.

Cassie Gillespie (06:34):

Oh, wow.

Mix Big Hartman (06:35):

Yeah. And believe it or not, we’re all protected from being discriminated against or harassed in those places.

Cassie Gillespie (06:43):

That is surprising.

Mix Big Hartman (06:44):

I know right. <Laugh>, I feel like I’m trying to get into as many public spaces as I can to talk about these protections. Cause A lot of us are walking around in the world only thinking maybe that we have like protections at work.

Cassie Gillespie (07:01):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (07:01):

We don’t realize that there’s actually a system of law that’s been set up that is the product of a civil rights movement.

Cassie Gillespie (07:09):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (07:09):

You know, that, that hundreds and thousands of people fought for these rights that we enjoy every day, possibly without even knowing it.

Cassie Gillespie (07:19):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (07:19):

So our agency is enforcing those protections in housing and public accommodations. And we also have a small portion of employment discrimination complaints that we can process involving the state of Vermont as the employer for folks that have regular employment discrimination complaints. Those are generally to be filed with the Attorney General’s Office Civil Rights Unit. But we have the state employment cases and our office, we have three attorney investigators who conduct investigations into these discrimination complaints working all over the state, wherever the discrimination is alleged. And also trying to help folks who have complaints maybe find a solution with the person they’re complaining about discrimination against. And then if we find that discrimination occurred through our investigation, we have the ability to enforce our laws in court through a litigation process. And we have one attorney who handles all of that litigation.

Cassie Gillespie (08:33):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (08:33):

So we have a very limited ability though for intake because we don’t have right now a full-time intake position. We’re working on making that happen at the State House. But folks are contacting our office every single day from around the state about their housing and about other discrimination that they are experiencing. And unfortunately we have to do kind of a tight selection process with those complaints. We can’t, We can’t take everybody’s complaint and investigate it, but we take as many as we can.

Cassie Gillespie (09:10):

How do you decide which complaints you take?

Mix Big Hartman (09:13):

That is one of the hardest things that I have to do in my role as the director. So we try to take as many of the housing cases as we can because we realize that there’s really no other avenue for folks to file those complaints and have it heard by anyone.

Cassie Gillespie (09:36):

Yeah. There’s no other recourse.

Mix Big Hartman (09:37):

Like people could go directly to a court and say, I think I’ve been discriminated against. And I, I think the State fair housing law has been violated. But the reality is there’s not a lot of attorneys who practice in that area of the law that represent complainants and that’s not really where cases tend to originate. They tend to start with us. We have a contract with HUD, the federal agency that enforces the Fair Housing Act at the federal level. So any claim that we accept that is also implicating federal law protections, which are, for the most part comparable. We get some payment for processing those cases by HUD. And most of those cases tend to be discrimination based on disability.

Cassie Gillespie (10:26):

Okay.

Mix Big Hartman (10:26):

So often those are reasonable accommodation requests or some other harassment or mistreatment is alleged based on somebody having a disability. And we try to take as many of the racial discrimination in housing complaints that we can. And then we have identified a few other, like, priority issues for our enforcement. One is discrimination and harassment in schools.

Cassie Gillespie (10:59):

Okay.

Mix Big Hartman (11:00):

So public school students, college students are all protected from being harassed in school based on a legally protected category that’s often gonna be race, color disability national origin, sexual orientation, sexual harassment and gender identity. Those are, those tend to be the most common types of school-based harassment claims.

Cassie Gillespie (11:26):

That makes sense.

Mix Big Hartman (11:27):

And when a school fails to protect a child from harassment that they know about in school, they can be subject to our our anti-discrimination protections under public accommodations. So we, those cases are really tough and gut wrenching. And we don’t see that those families have any other avenue for getting to the bottom of what happened. We’re not, and I wanna make really clear, we’re not representing anyone who’s filing a complaint with us.

Cassie Gillespie (11:58):

Yeah. This is an interesting thing about your structure.

Mix Big Hartman (12:01):

It is. And it is often misunderstood. I think we, so folks call us all the time and say, I wanna know, I want you to represent me. I need a lawyer.

Cassie Gillespie (12:11):

Right.

Mix Big Hartman (12:11):

And it’s like, well, I have lawyers that work here, but they’re not going to represent you. They’re lawyers who are specializing in discrimination law. And they will. But our investigations are by law neutral. We are not representing any party, and we are, we are trying to find out if discrimination happened or not.

Cassie Gillespie (12:30):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (12:31):

And we’re gonna do that by investigating by collecting documents, by conducting interviews, recording investigative interviews, getting information from third parties that may know more may help us verify somebody’s testimony. But we’ve really noticed a trend in Vermont schools that parents seeking justice from their schools, their children’s schools and protecting them from harassment are not really finding relief anywhere else.

Cassie Gillespie (13:07):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (13:08):

So we at least wanna give them the opportunity to tell us their story, for us to find out from the school how they did address. what they knew about.

Cassie Gillespie (13:17):

Whatever the issue is.

Mix Big Hartman (13:18):

Yeah. And if we can try to remedy that harm, or at least make the harassment stop, that’s that’s a great outcome for everyone.

Cassie Gillespie (13:28):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (13:30):

so we really do place a high priority on the school harassment complaints of which we have more than we can really handle right now. And many are kind of in a holding pattern while we wait for staff to have time to get to them. And then another area of priority that, that we have these days is around service dogs in public accommodations.

Cassie Gillespie (13:55):

Oh, interesting.

Mix Big Hartman (13:55):

There’s a lot of business owners that don’t realize that they have to comply with.

Cassie Gillespie (14:00):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (14:01):

state and federal law, Americans with Disabilities Act that mandates that any place a person with a disability can go, they need to be able to bring their service dog if the dog is specially trained to perform a task related to their disability. So we’re seeing a lot of cases where business owners turn away someone who has a service dog with them. And and we are seeing firsthand the trauma that that is having on that individual and being able to kind of feel safe going anywhere in the public ’cause Usually those service dogs are absolutely required for their safety.

Cassie Gillespie (14:42):

Yeah. Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (14:43):

In accessing our world. So the question you asked was about how do we decide what cases to take?

Cassie Gillespie (14:51):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (14:52):

And those are some of the factors that we use. Folks have to get in the door with us within one year of the last discriminatory act. Or their, their…. Our rules say, we can’t accept it for investigation. It doesn’t mean that they can’t file a claim in court.

Cassie Gillespie (15:09):

Sure.

Mix Big Hartman (15:09):

. Which you have six years. But that’s one of our criteria. They may not be able to articulate some reason why they think they were treated differently.

Cassie Gillespie (15:22):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (15:23):

Because of their membership in a protected class. So we need to hear something like that. And some reason besides, I just know it was because of my fill in the blank.

Cassie Gillespie (15:35):

Right.

Mix Big Hartman (15:35):

You know we need some reason that you think that.

Cassie Gillespie (15:39):

Okay.

Mix Big Hartman (15:40):

And so if we don’t hear that, that sometimes is a reason that we will turn folks away . And then unfortunately, sometimes I’m just really having to come to terms with the bandwidth of my team, my very, very small team.

Cassie Gillespie (15:55):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (15:55):

And say we have to, we can’t take this case right now because it’s, it’s gonna be a huge burden on my staff. And if they accept this case, that’s gonna dominate their time for the next four months.

Cassie Gillespie (16:08):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (16:08):

At the expense of five other claims that could be processed in that time.

Cassie Gillespie (16:11):

So you’re really triaging in this way.

Mix Big Hartman (16:13):

It’s triage every day.

Cassie Gillespie (16:14):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (16:15):

It’s triage and what phone calls can I return today? What emails.

Cassie Gillespie (16:19):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (16:19):

What questionnaires came in that we can review today.

Cassie Gillespie (16:22):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (16:23):

And it’s, it’s a really uphill battle

Cassie Gillespie (16:27):

In that way.

Mix Big Hartman (16:28):

Yeah. But what I will say is that all of us on staff are just really dedicated to our mission. The, the mission of the Human Rights Commission is to advance full civil and human rights in Vermont. And so we’re giving it all we can.

Cassie Gillespie (16:42):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (16:43):

But the reality is we don’t have all the resources that we need.

Cassie Gillespie (16:46):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (16:46):

To meet the requests that come in each day, and to be able to process the complaint investigations as quickly as anyone would like.

Mix Big Hartman (16:55):

Yeah. Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (16:56):

You know? Yeah.

Cassie Gillespie (16:56):

And I imagine that’s harmful not only to the complainants, is that the correct term? The complainants

Mix Big Hartman (17:02):

Complainants.

Cassie Gillespie (17:03):

Complainants,

Mix Big Hartman (17:03):

yep. <Laugh>.

Cassie Gillespie (17:04):

And you and your staff Right. To be like picking up stuff months, weeks, and months, and maybe even years after the initial incident occurred.

Mix Big Hartman (17:14):

It’s also, I wanna acknowledge, it’s also really hard for the respondents.

Cassie Gillespie (17:18):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (17:18):

Those are the people who the complaint is against, they feel often they feel falsely accused.

Cassie Gillespie (17:23):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (17:23):

And so they want their, they wanna say their piece.

Cassie Gillespie (17:27):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (17:27):

You know, they want a closure. They’re very stressed by a discrimination complaint being filed against them.

Cassie Gillespie (17:32):

Right.

Mix Big Hartman (17:33):

And when they have to wait a year to finally talk to an investigator about it, that’s not ideal.

Cassie Gillespie (17:39):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (17:39):

For anybody.

Mix Big Hartman (17:41):

Also, as time goes by, people don’t remember things as well.

Cassie Gillespie (17:44):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (17:44):

People move out of State, like people lose their phone or their texts or their documentation that they had. It’s really not an ideal situation.

Cassie Gillespie (17:53):

Yeah. No, that makes sense.

Mix Big Hartman (17:55):

We have sped up. We’ve, you know, since I’ve become director, I’ve been trying to innovate our processes as much as we can so that we can speed up the closure of cases for everyone, including our ourselves, <laugh> <laugh> without, but we wanna do that without compromising the integrity of the investigation.

Cassie Gillespie (18:13):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (18:13):

Without, like, cutting corners.

Cassie Gillespie (18:15):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (18:16):

and so we have had some success at that mainly by simplifying the investigative report that our attorneys write at the end of an investigation used to be extremely long document with you know, reciting basically every fact that was discussed in the investigation.

Cassie Gillespie (18:35):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (18:35):

Even things that weren’t really crucial for the conclusion.

Cassie Gillespie (18:39):

Sure, sure.

Mix Big Hartman (18:40):

So we’ve tried to streamline that and we have seen that our case closure time is shrinking. It’s still averaging more than a year though.

Cassie Gillespie (18:49):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (18:49):

For all complaints.

Cassie Gillespie (18:51):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (18:51):

That’s, and that is brutal for everyone.

Cassie Gillespie (18:54):

That is, there’s so many things I wanna ask you about, but while we’re here on this,

Mix Big Hartman (18:59):

okay.

Cassie Gillespie (18:59):

Let me drill into, so you referenced a little bit earlier that there’s a bill in the State House. Is it around resourcing to kind of get at this issue for the Human Rights Commission?

Mix Big Hartman (19:11):

Yeah. There’s always Bills going around about civil rights and human rights and the Human Rights Commission and what we do this year we’re really focused on increasing our resources and our capacity.

Cassie Gillespie (19:25):

Okay.

Mix Big Hartman (19:25):

So there was a bill that was introduced and it’s kind of gotten directed into the budget conversations.

Cassie Gillespie (19:34):

Okay.

Mix Big Hartman (19:35):

Because it was really about creating funding and positions for our office to be able to do more work.

Cassie Gillespie (19:42):

Yeah. But When we say resources, I feel like we’re often

Mix Big Hartman (19:44):

Using it’s dollars.

Cassie Gillespie (19:45):

Yeah.

Cassie Gillespie (19:45):

We’re using quoted language for money <laugh>.

Mix Big Hartman (19:47):

Right. And what money is. It is state tax dollars.

Cassie Gillespie (19:51):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (19:52):

You know, which is a, a, a tough thing to ask for right now.

Cassie Gillespie (19:55):

Right.

Mix Big Hartman (19:56):

And I feel that, and we all know that.

Cassie Gillespie (19:58):

Yeah.

Cassie Gillespie (19:59):

At the same time, we’re all in the civil rights world seeing that we can no longer rely on our federal government to take action and resource civil rights enforcement. So it’s more important than ever that civil rights enforcement at the state level be robust

Cassie Gillespie (20:21):

And funded Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (20:23):

Yeah. And, and as, and funded as best as it as it possibly can. I have felt from day one working at the Human Rights Commission that it’s being run on a shoestring budget.

Cassie Gillespie (20:36):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (20:36):

And I don’t understand how human rights can have such a low priority in a state that thinks of itself as so liberal and progressive human.

Cassie Gillespie (20:50):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (20:50):

And and equitable and inclusive.

Cassie Gillespie (20:55):

Yeah. This might be a place to share, you know, so full disclosure, big came to one of my social work classes earlier this semester and was talking about the idea that there are these protections codified in law, and yet there aren’t enough resources to hold people accountable for when those protections aren’t met. Right. And the students were like, but how is that legal? And, and we just kind of spun around that question, this sort of gap between what citizens are supposed to have access to and what you actually have access to. Did I, did I summarize it correctly? Does that feel like it?

Mix Big Hartman (21:30):

Yes. And I mean, I, I really, I identified with the students in your class.

Cassie Gillespie (21:35):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (21:35):

Like that younger part of me who was studying about the world at that age.

Cassie Gillespie (21:41):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (21:41):

And seeing that there was so much that was wrong. And you know, one of your students was like, you know, why don’t you just go and tell the Supreme Court that they are not doing this right. You know, and I, I just, it’s so, it was so endearing to me because I thought you could just do that kind of thing.

Cassie Gillespie (22:02):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (22:02):

When I was younger, you could just go and tell whoever

Cassie Gillespie (22:06):

And it would get fixed

Mix Big Hartman (22:07):

And it would, yeah. And then they would listen and then it would, the problem would become solved.

Cassie Gillespie (22:12):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (22:13):

and that was one of the reasons I wanted to go to law school. ’cause I wanted to figure out what do you actually need to do? Because we’re all talking about this and nothing’s changing.

Cassie Gillespie (22:22):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (22:22):

What do you actually have to do and

Cassie Gillespie (22:26):

To fund a human rights commission <laugh>

Mix Big Hartman (22:28):

Yeah. To like actually carry out equality.

Cassie Gillespie (22:32):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (22:32):

And justice.

Cassie Gillespie (22:33):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (22:34):

And money is a big part of it. And the, it turns out the process is in the appropriations committees,

Cassie Gillespie (22:44):

<Laugh>, go figure,

Mix Big Hartman (22:45):

<Laugh>. You know, so today there’s, you know, seven people sitting in senate appropriations

Cassie Gillespie (22:51):

Literally today, like right now,

Mix Big Hartman (22:53):

literally today.

Cassie Gillespie (22:53):

Oh, wow.

Mix Big Hartman (22:53):

They’ve probably started to pack up, you know, <laugh> because everyone’s exhausted on Fridays there.

Cassie Gillespie (23:00):

Yeah. Friday afternoon.

Mix Big Hartman (23:02):

For good reason. And there’s a budget package that’s been passed on the house for the next fiscal year.

Cassie Gillespie (23:13):

Okay.

Mix Big Hartman (23:13):

And it has to next get reviewed and considered on the Senate side.

Cassie Gillespie (23:18):

Okay.

Mix Big Hartman (23:19):

And then, so

Cassie Gillespie (23:20):

You’ll just hold your breath for that.

Mix Big Hartman (23:21):

So we have two positions being added.

Cassie Gillespie (23:23):

Okay.

Mix Big Hartman (23:24):

In the, from the house.

Cassie Gillespie (23:25):

Okay.

Mix Big Hartman (23:26):

from the house bill, which is, they call it the BIG bill.

Cassie Gillespie (23:28):

Okay.

Mix Big Hartman (23:30):

I think it’s called, it’s H 493.

Cassie Gillespie (23:32):

Okay.

Mix Big Hartman (23:33):

And that’s what the Senate Appropriations Committee is reviewing now, and they go line by line. Every single agency of State government has line items in several agencies and departments have several line items.

Cassie Gillespie (23:47):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (23:47):

.We just have one little, we’re a little tiny blip out of.

Cassie Gillespie (23:51):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (23:52):

The overall budget.

Cassie Gillespie (23:53):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (23:53):

You know, Not easy decisions at all. And they’re trying to look at everything at once and then try to pick out what are the things that we can adjust.

Cassie Gillespie (24:04):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (24:05):

So that’s been an interesting learning for me to see how, how democracy happens.

Cassie Gillespie (24:14):

Yeah.

Cassie Gillespie (24:15):

I want a different expression than the one I’m about to use, but I don’t know a better one, which is the whole, like how the sausage gets made.

Cassie Gillespie (24:22):

<Laugh> that a good one.

Cassie Gillespie (24:23):

That always, it always grosses me out. Sorry to all the sausage makers <laugh>. So if you’re listening, if people are listening and they wanna support this bill, is this one of those things where they should send an email and call a senator? Call not a representative anymore. ’cause It’s moved out of the house. Call a senator.

Mix Big Hartman (24:41):

So yeah. I mean, there’s, there’s people in the appropriations committee who are gonna be making a decision about how whether to increase US above the two. The bill that was introduced to expand the Human Rights Commission was a proposal to increase us by six full-time positions in two part-time positions.

Cassie Gillespie (25:04):

Oh, So the two is a significantly smaller amount.

Mix Big Hartman (25:10):

The two originally were appearing in the Budget Adjustment Act from the house and the Senate, which got passed by both by both

Cassie Gillespie (25:19):

Okay.

Cassie Gillespie (25:19):

Parts of our government, or both sides of our legislature, and then got vetoed by the governor. Oh, I see. And so the budget adjustment act is like this big question mark right now.

Cassie Gillespie (25:28):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (25:28):

As they seem to be in disagreement about the motel program and the.

Cassie Gillespie (25:35):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (25:35):

You know, other larger funding disparities. And our two positions that were in the budget adjustment are no longer in that bill.

Cassie Gillespie (25:46):

I see.

Mix Big Hartman (25:46):

As it sits now, which is also very, apparently pretty likely to get vetoed again. So the, they’ve taken those two positions out of what was the original budget adjustment from the House and Senate, and they’ve put those two positions into fiscal year 26 budget for now. It’s there. We were asking for those two positions in this budget adjustment, which is a current fiscal year. We’re like in the last quarter practically.

Cassie Gillespie (26:17):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (26:17):

Of this fiscal year. And it was really what I was asking for those two positions was a stop gap measure.

Cassie Gillespie (26:25):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (26:25):

To help us keep your head above water Yes. To enable us to continue to receive complaints like today.

Cassie Gillespie (26:30):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (26:31):

And the vision was that we would get those positions next month we’d be having people in those jobs.

Cassie Gillespie (26:38):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (26:38):

Next month, that’s not gonna happen. Right. So that those two positions that are currently on the table are really the bare minimum to enable us to process the current things that are already accepted, the complaints that are already accepted and are literally waiting for an investigator to pick them up.

Cassie Gillespie (27:02):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (27:02):

They’re sitting on my desk with no investigator assigned to them. And then we have like another hundred people literally, that are waiting for an intake process with our office. So one of the positions that’s on the table is an investigator in the other, is that full-time intake intake person who we very badly need. So I see that as just enabling us to tread water, but not enabling us to increase our reach or to.

Cassie Gillespie (27:32):

work through the backlog

Mix Big Hartman (27:33):

Or to get ahead. Of the significant civil rights challenges that we face in the years to come. Well,

Cassie Gillespie (27:43):

That’s something else I was curious about and you know, you’re kind of teasing it here, so let’s talk about it now. Is how has or is the current administration and the kind of changing federal landscape, changing your work and the work of your team?

Mix Big Hartman (28:03):

I feel that the, the rhetoric that’s happening nationally for the last year or so that has become very anti-immigrant and anti trans.

Cassie Gillespie (28:16):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (28:18):

Is we are feeling that in the schools.

Cassie Gillespie (28:21):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (28:21):

We are feeling that in housing. And I believe it’s contributing to the uptick in requests for new complaints.

Cassie Gillespie (28:30):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (28:30):

That we’re now buried in.

Cassie Gillespie (28:31):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (28:33):

But in terms of things that the federal government itself is doing, that’s how is that impacting us? We expect and are beginning to just now start to feel the effects of cuts to the, to HUD.

Cassie Gillespie (28:48):

Hud. Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (28:49):

So HUD is the federal agency that provides funding for fair housing enforcement, and we receive about 10% of our overall budget is budgeted to be risk funds from HUD because of our contract with them. Also, HUD gives money to advocacy organizations and educational organizations in Vermont, most notably C-V-O-E-O, the Champlain Valley Office of Economic Opportunity. And Vermont Legal Aid for its housing discrimination project.

Cassie Gillespie (29:25):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (29:25):

Those two organizations, we are, they refer complaints to us all the time, and we are referring folks to them all the time. Because of the differences in our work, they have received federal, federal fair housing money for many years to enable them to sustain fair housing education and advocacy. And those funds appear to be not available anymore.

Cassie Gillespie (29:54):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (29:54):

Very suddenly.

Cassie Gillespie (29:55):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (29:56):

Without Vermont Legal Aid representing people in fair housing cases.

Cassie Gillespie (30:01):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (30:01):

Which is a reality now without them being able to be a lawyer representing people who have experienced discrimination in housing, there are almost no attorneys in the state of Vermont who will represent these complainants.

Cassie Gillespie (30:17):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (30:18):

Really really putting pressure on our office to do investigations because we’re an administrative process that you don’t need to have an attorney Right. Representing you if you

Cassie Gillespie (30:30):

Can get an investigation going

Mix Big Hartman (30:32):

And Right. Theoretically, you don’t need an attorney to file a lawsuit in court, but if you file a lawsuit in court against a housing provider, guess what? They have an insurance policy.

Cassie Gillespie (30:42):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (30:43):

They have attorneys that will represent them. They may have a way, a much deeper set of resources that they can draw from to represent them and, and insulate them from any liability. But the individual who’s been harmed is up. It’s everything is up against them on those side of things. So we feel very, very worried both at, in Vermont, and as we talk with other human rights leaders across the State and other states, and I’m especially close to a lot of the folk, my counterparts in New England. You know, there’s a high level of worry and anxiety. Yeah.

Cassie Gillespie (31:27):

Yeah. And so if I were to summarize that, am I accurately understanding that at the same time that the rhetoric at the federal level of the national level is ramping up and maybe driving new instances of discrimination and your complaints numbers arising, that there’s not only is the baseline proposal in front of the, you know, legislature at risk of being funded or not being funded federal funding is being cut and your budget is in fact shrinking and the budget of other nonprofits that you work with in the community is also shrinking.

Mix Big Hartman (32:04):

Yes. The nonprofits who do fair housing advocacy work. Yeah. they will have to rely on other sources like raising money from the community Yeah. Because they have relied on federal grants that they have

Cassie Gillespie (32:20):

That are just, gone

Mix Big Hartman (32:21):

That are now, not available or not being funded.

Mix Big Hartman (32:24):

Yeah. yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (32:26):

And so it is, it is a challenging time for us seeing the possibility that 10% of next year’s budget will be gone.

Cassie Gillespie (32:37):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (32:38):

That additional, the additional positions we’re requesting, that’s a $250,000 line item, and it’s about a hundred thousand that is in the budget from hud. So that would be like one of the positions that we’ve just worked so hard to hopefully get, is now just gonna be used for basic operating expenses instead. And, but I will say our agency, it’s the impact is much less than some other really important.

Cassie Gillespie (33:07):

Sure, sure.

Mix Big Hartman (33:07):

Agencies in state government.

Cassie Gillespie (33:08):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (33:09):

That really rely on a lot of their programming to happen with federal dollars.

Cassie Gillespie (33:13):

Yeah. Yeah. It’s just underscores like the vulnerability of this moment. And I think one of the things I wanna pull the through line on is to connect, like, and then how this impacts Vermonters directly, especially our most vulnerable Vermonters, you know,

Mix Big Hartman (33:28):

And I, I, I really wanna talk about that, and I also just wanna say that’s in the back of the minds of these legislators right now.

Cassie Gillespie (33:35):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (33:35):

That, well, if we pay this money out, but we don’t know what other things are gonna be taken in the middle of next year.

Cassie Gillespie (33:42):

Right.

Mix Big Hartman (33:42):

They’re very rightfully worried.

Cassie Gillespie (33:46):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (33:46):

About spending too much in the budget now when they may need to draw from those funds to support operations.

Cassie Gillespie (33:54):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (33:54):

On other projects that are really important to basic services.

Cassie Gillespie (33:58):

Yeah.

Cassie Gillespie (33:58):

It’s triaged all over the place.

Mix Big Hartman (34:00):

It really is.

Cassie Gillespie (34:01):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (34:03):

Our office does feel a lot of the struggle with the motel program.

Cassie Gillespie (34:09):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (34:11):

folks participating in that program are calling our office very frequently.

Cassie Gillespie (34:15):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (34:17):

and the conditions that they’re living in are often substandard.

Cassie Gillespie (34:22):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (34:22):

That’s the reports we hear. I don’t hear about the folks who are really happy, happy and everything’s going well for them.

Cassie Gillespie (34:28):

Right.

Mix Big Hartman (34:28):

Though, you know, but that is creating a demand in our office to you know, give, you know, time and care and attention to these phone calls from folks who are so vulnerable. Many have just been displaced from the housing from that program this week.

Cassie Gillespie (34:51):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (34:52):

more are dropping, are getting kind of timed out of the program. In the weeks to come and it’s, it’s and C-V-O-E-O is one of the organizations that provides a lot of direct service for.

Cassie Gillespie (35:05):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (35:06):

Folks up in Champlain in the Champlain Valley as well who are at that level of vulnerability. Many of those folks experience, are people with disabilities you know, people who are also members of other protected classes and more likely to experience discrimination and barriers everywhere they go.

Cassie Gillespie (35:31):

Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s really important that we highlight that fact that the vulnerability makes you more likely to experience discrimination.

Mix Big Hartman (35:39):

Right. And kind of the intersection of Yeah. You know, your disabilities, your age, your your you know, race and gender and sexual orientation. Like all those factors have a role in how you experience the world and how you’re treated.

Cassie Gillespie (36:01):

Yeah. And I, the motel program, like hearing folks talk about it, it’s such a good example of a thing that I think a lot of Vermonters have different perspectives on in this moment about kind of like how their dollars should be spent, but maybe a limited understanding of exactly how vulnerable the people in those rooms are.

Mix Big Hartman (36:18):

Right, right. And I it’s, it’s such a tough problem.

Cassie Gillespie (36:23):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (36:24):

Such a tough problem. And but I know we’re one of, you know, several offices in state government that are, are struggling to meet the demands of those community members.

Cassie Gillespie (36:36):

Yeah, Yeah. Yeah. Because housing is a human, right. That’s, I said it .But maybe not. Well, we can get into the legal, I was gonna say maybe not in the public accommodations Act

Mix Big Hartman (36:50):

Fair housing is a human Right. Fair, fair housing and that means housing free of discrimination.

Cassie Gillespie (36:56):

Yeah. Yeah. I do think it’s, I wanna like, pull on that a little bit though. This idea of like, the way we, we, I’ll include myself talk about human rights. Sometimes there’s a lot of daylight between what I might talk about as a social work educator as a human Right. Versus what’s codified in Vermont state law as a human. Right. Fair.

Mix Big Hartman (37:15):

Yeah. Well, I don’t even, so human right isn’t really a thing that is in state law.

Cassie Gillespie (37:20):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (37:20):

It’s civil rights.

Cassie Gillespie (37:21):

Yeah. Okay.

Mix Big Hartman (37:22):

And I have Why

Cassie Gillespie (37:23):

Aren’t you the Civil rights Commissioner?

Mix Big Hartman (37:24):

I have Thought that question many times. <Laugh> in Massachusetts, our counterparts are the commission against discrimination.

Cassie Gillespie (37:32):

Oh.

Mix Big Hartman (37:32):

And I do think we would have less calls

Cassie Gillespie (37:35):

If that’s what you were titled,

Mix Big Hartman (37:36):

Because every week there’s a call of someone who’s like, my human rights are violated.

Cassie Gillespie (37:42):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (37:42):

And, and, and that may be true, but that’s not discrimination.

Cassie Gillespie (37:47):

Right, Interesting.

Mix Big Hartman (37:47):

Yeah.

Cassie Gillespie (37:48):

Oh, it’s so rich <laugh>.

Mix Big Hartman (37:49):

So like, you know, voting rights Yeah. That’s a civil right.

Cassie Gillespie (37:52):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (37:52):

But it’s, that’s not something that we deal with. That’s not discrimination. You know, if you were denied access to voting because of a membership in a protected class, that would be discrimination.

Cassie Gillespie (38:03):

And then that,

Mix Big Hartman (38:04):

But we certainly all think that having the right to vote is a basic human right for all Americans. Right.

Cassie Gillespie (38:10):

It’s certainly a civil Right.

Mix Big Hartman (38:11):

In a democracy.

Mix Big Hartman (38:12):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (38:13):

And that is separate from what is thought of as human rights, which is really the right to be free of discrimination. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Cassie Gillespie (38:21):

Yeah. Ah, so interesting. Okay. I could talk to you all day about it, and.

Mix Big Hartman (38:25):

I know Right.

Cassie Gillespie (38:26):

<Laugh> happily would. But we, we should wrap up, but I wanna ask you this question that I ask anyone who’s engaged in like a service oriented or helping profession before you go, which is, how are you <laugh>, how are your staff? How are you all doing? You know, I think that when we talk about trauma-informed work, sometimes we neglect to talk about what trauma-informed employment looks like, even, you know, so Yeah. How do you wanna respond to, to that <laugh>?

Mix Big Hartman (38:54):

Well, how am I and how are my staff? Is it…, It’s honestly feels like a loaded question.

Cassie Gillespie (39:01):

Yeah. I know

Mix Big Hartman (39:01):

I know. My staff are amazing and there’s been a lot of turnover. So I have been with the Human Rights Commission since September of 2021. We have seven positions, and I am now the most senior staff member.

Cassie Gillespie (39:17):

Wow.

Mix Big Hartman (39:17):

And it’s not because I’m a terrible boss, <laugh>. It’s because the work is so hard. Yeah. I have had to see so many people now be harmed.

Cassie Gillespie (39:32):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (39:32):

Doing this work.

Cassie Gillespie (39:33):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (39:34):

it, it’s a high burnout reality when, especially when you’re in a state system that is not satisfactory to anybody involved.

Cassie Gillespie (39:43):

yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (39:43):

It is what it is. And we’re working within that system, both to change it and to do as much good as we can. And there’s such a high demand and it never, it, there’s never a break. You’ve, you close a case that you worked really hard on. Your reward is three cases waiting for you

Cassie Gillespie (40:01):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (40:01):

To pick up now three to 13 to 30.

Cassie Gillespie (40:05):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (40:05):

You know what I mean?

Cassie Gillespie (40:06):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (40:06):

It’s like, it just keeps growing and I think

Cassie Gillespie (40:09):

There are a lot of caseworkers in different disciplines listening, like feeling you right now,

Mix Big Hartman (40:13):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (40:13):

So the, the burnout is real. And in consideration of that, you know, we, I try to be really spacious with my team and checking in, you know, as often as they would like around, how are you? What do you need?

Cassie Gillespie (40:31):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (40:31):

Have you, do you think you maybe should like, cut out this afternoon and go take care of yourself? Like, you haven’t made that, you know, car tire appointment in four months, like, maybe you should go do that thing, or just, you know do you need to talk? Like, let’s close the door, like, you know.

Cassie Gillespie (40:48):

Yeah.

Cassie Gillespie (40:49):

let’s co-regulate.

Mix Big Hartman (40:50):

Yeah. Let’s allowing space for people to be upset or vent and that that’s okay. And you know how I’m doing, I think my leadership posture is to be really supportive. And so sometimes that means that I’m doing things that probably are someone else could, should be doing.

Cassie Gillespie (41:14):

I’m nodding,

Mix Big Hartman (41:14):

but I don’t wanna overburden those people that I care for and who I want to be able to sustain here.

Cassie Gillespie (41:20):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (41:20):

And so I end up taking on a lot and then not ever feeling like I’m accomplishing the task of the day because I’m always behind from last week.

Cassie Gillespie (41:30):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (41:31):

And that wears on you for sure.

Cassie Gillespie (41:34):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (41:34):

So, and we’ve had a lot of turnover. So about every couple months lately I have a vacancy and that work is falling on me.

Cassie Gillespie (41:43):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (41:44):

To kind of hold until there’s a new person who can get onboarded and trained and that’s, that’s months.

Cassie Gillespie (41:50):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (41:52):

so I think there’s always a need to check in with myself. Like, like last night I was at event until eight o’clock at night and I got home, and then today I was testifying at the State House this morning and then driving up here and I was having at least like a practice of self-awareness of like, wow, I’m really tired. I feel burnt out today. I don’t think, you know, I can eat this healthy, nutritious lunch that I brought for myself.

Cassie Gillespie (42:24):

Sure.

Mix Big Hartman (42:24):

And where’s the Snickers bar? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (42:27):

And I need some soothing.

Cassie Gillespie (42:28):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (42:29):

You know so and making sure that I draw boundaries for my own wellness and try to model for my staff the drawing of boundaries.

Cassie Gillespie (42:41):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (42:41):

For our own wellness. And so, you know, I checked out of the office to come up here and I’m not going back. <Laugh>.

Cassie Gillespie (42:49):

good for you.

Mix Big Hartman (42:50):

And I’m not gonna like I can’t say I won’t check any emails over the weekend, but I’m not gonna respond to any emails over the weekend.

Cassie Gillespie (42:58):

<Laugh> nice.

Mix Big Hartman (42:58):

And I didn’t bring my laptop with me. You know,

Cassie Gillespie (43:01):

these are big steps.

Mix Big Hartman (43:02):

I still have my work phone, but <laugh> you know, there’s some of those limits. Even knowing that it means Monday I’m gonna get in, it’s

Cassie Gillespie (43:11):

Gonna, yeah…

Mix Big Hartman (43:12):

There’s that pile, the list that didn’t get done from last week. And just trying to be easy with myself about it while doing as much as I can each day.

Cassie Gillespie (43:21):

You know, Leaders, like, not to get too deep into it right here, but leaders are under this added layer, right. Where you’re trying to protect your staff pick up stuff so that they have room to breathe and simultaneously model for them that boundaries are okay. Boundaries are good, boundaries are necessary, and all that is still separate from your own personal wellbeing and what you need, you know? So it really is like, it’s really layered for leaders who are trying to do like, trauma-informed workplaces.

Mix Big Hartman (43:50):

Yeah. And I think there’s also, it’s also important, it’s this fine line of, it’s important to be positive with your team.

Cassie Gillespie (43:59):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (43:59):

You know that even if you are down trodden

Cassie Gillespie (44:02):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (44:02):

And you’re wiped out and exhausted that your staff don’t feel that from you.

Cassie Gillespie (44:08):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (44:08):

All the time.

Cassie Gillespie (44:09):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (44:09):

They can feel it from you once in a while. It’s important to be like authentic with them.

Cassie Gillespie (44:13):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (44:14):

That, that’s where you’re at right now. But it’s also important to put on a face sometimes and like do positivity and hope whenever you can.

Cassie Gillespie (44:26):

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (44:27):

Especially I think in these times for folks in Vermont who are, you know, who believe in the rule of law and <laugh> wanna see a better world, what’s happening nationally doesn’t reflect what we wanna see in the world. And so we, we really for me it’s about keeping us all on our mission.

Cassie Gillespie (44:47):

Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (44:47):

And reminding us all the time why we’re doing this, finding opportunities for us to enjoy ourselves in it, and things that get staff out of the day to day kind of sludge into something that is inspiring and enjoyable for them is also something that I try to cultivate for everyone.

Cassie Gillespie (45:04):

Yeah.

New Speaker (45:04):

Like, what’s the thing that you’re interested in? Like let’s go to that thing. Let’s have you do this other thing that isn’t so draining.

Cassie Gillespie (45:13):

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Mix Big Hartman (45:15):

And that fills your cup a little.

Cassie Gillespie (45:16):

Well, that’s probably where we should stop it, right? With full cups.

Mix Big Hartman (45:19):

Yeah. We Got full cups.

Speaker 2 (45:21):

We have full cups. <Laugh>, thank you so much for coming today. Thank you. If people wanna find you, can they look you up on like a state website?

Mix Big Hartman (45:28):

Yeah, it’s vermont.hrc.gov. Or

Cassie Gillespie (45:34):

We’ll link it in the show notes.

Mix Big Hartman (45:35):

HRC. Something with the HRC.

Cassie Gillespie (45:37):

with the Human Rights Commission. Yeah. <Laugh>. Alright. Alright. Thank you so much.

Mix Big Hartman (45:41):

Thank you.

Cassie Gillespie (45:44):

The Social work lens is produced by the University of Vermont’s Child Welfare Training Partnership and the State of Vermont. Our theme music is composed and performed by local band Brick Drop, and our sound production and engineering has been brought to you by Egan Media Productions. We’d also like to give a special thank you to our in-house administrative production assistant Emma Baird for the social work lens. I’m Cassie Gillespie and we’ll see you next time.