Immigration is a Human Right (revisited): Detained & Interrogated

Transcript:

Cassie Gillespie (00:00):

Hello, I’m Cassie, and I’m here today with Wilmer Chavaria.

Wilmer Chavaria  (00:03):

Hi.

Wilmer Chavaria  (00:03):

Thank you for coming back.

Wilmer Chavaria  (00:05):

Yeah, thank you for having me.

Cassie Gillespie (00:06):

Oh my gosh, it’s our pleasure. So, unless you’ve been under a rock, you’ve noticed that Wilmer has been all over the news lately, locally, but also nationally. And Wilmer was a guest on an episode we did a couple months ago about immigration. And so much of what you talked about on that episode, Wilmer, was almost like a prophecy. Like so much of what you said has been happening and kind of coming, coming true. And so we wanted to have you back to tell us a little bit about what you experienced just a couple weeks ago at the border, if you’re open to it.

Wilmer Chavaria  (00:40):

Yeah, I think, thank you for the question and for bringing me back because it’s all connected and that’s one of the reasons why we are not believing that this is just pure coincidence and I just happen to be randomly selected. There’s, that’s not a thing. So apparently when I came into back into the country from one of my usual trips home that I do multiple times a year for some reason they had, somebody had made a decision to put me on some sort of list. So I was flagged, my profile was flagged in their system. Whether, whether because somebody with power decided to flag me for interrogation and detention, or whether someone or people reported me for some reason and made something up, I don’t know. You, can make anything up about an immigrant and that should be enough. That is enough for ICE or CBP or the authorities to go and harass you.

Cassie Gillespie (01:39):

Yeah.

Wilmer Chavaria  (01:40):

So either way. I’m very vocal about some of my positions in advocacy. I’m very vocal about my criticisms of human rights abuses of immigrants by this administration. I, like you said, I’ve been on the news. This is not the first time I’m on the news. I’ve been on the news for the past few months for different reasons, not because I tried to, but because I don’t think many people are being as loud and vocal about certain things. And when I just say what I think everybody should be saying, then <laugh>, then a lot of people make noise about it. And, and I don’t think that’s a bad thing. I think that’s good. I’m glad that, I’m glad that that my position can be shared and I’m glad I’m given a microphone to, to say it myself rather than I’ll say it for me. Right.

Cassie Gillespie (02:33):

Yeah.

Wilmer Chavaria  (02:34):

So I came into the country, and I had been flagged, I was in the system, I was not allowed in like I usually am with my global entry pass. Instead, they escorted me away into some interrogation rooms with no one there for. And they basically had me in interrogation for four to five hours. So that was at least four hours, if not five of four to seven different officers, most of them in plain clothes.

Cassie Gillespie (03:05):

Yeah.

Wilmer Chavaria  (03:05):

In in civilian clothes, in jeans and t-shirts and stuff. And they seized my devices, including my district issued laptop, and they demanded passwords and pins. And the whole thing was very it felt like bullying and harassment and.

Cassie Gillespie (03:22):

Yeah.

Wilmer Chavaria  (03:23):

It wasn’t, it wasn’t very it didn’t feel very appropriate and not that obviously we have to go through you know, we have to, it’s, it’s a thing that when you go through airports and stuff like that, you’re checked. That’s a thing. I accept that and, and you are vetted for all in all sorts of ways and all that. But this wasn’t that. This wasn’t your usual, let me see your car, the back of your car, and then, okay, there’s nothing there. Move on. Or like, ask you a couple questions. Where were you? How long were you there? You know, that’s, that’s, this was not it. This was a lot more than that. Taken into spaces with people in civilian clothes interrogating you, everything from the validity of your marriage to your work and, and what you have in your files and all sorts of things for hours and hours, four to five hours, and being threatened with different things. I was threatened with, they said they would stain my records, so I would not get a job. I would lose my job and not get another one. They would,

Cassie Gillespie (04:28):

my goodness,

Wilmer Chavaria  (04:28):

they would say that they would refer me to the FBI if I didn’t give them student and family files. It was a pretty, pretty remarkable show of harassment and terror by the US authorities against a US citizen.

Cassie Gillespie (04:45):

Yeah.

Wilmer Chavaria  (04:45):

I am a US citizen. I have a US passport. And so that was, the most incredible part to me was when somebody said that I did not have constitutional rights at a point of entry.

Cassie Gillespie (04:58):

Wow.

Wilmer Chavaria  (04:59):

And so there’s a lot more to say, but I will say this, this was not normal by any means, not normal to me, and not normal to any American. And that, I think that’s why it’s made national news because it’s a pretty scary situation.

Cassie Gillespie (05:13):

Yeah.

Wilmer Chavaria  (05:14):

And I can take guesses why I was flagged. I mean, not only am I brown and I have an accent and I’m an immigrant, but also I’ve been very critical of the administration’s policies against immigrants and other vulnerable communities.

Cassie Gillespie (05:28):

Yeah. Yeah. Well, let me say, I’m so sorry that that happened to you, and I’m so appreciative that you are sharing your experience with everyone. You know, I think one of the ways we closed the last episode was talking a little bit about what can we do on this issue? And we all agree that kind of staying informed is, is a bedrock of that.

Wilmer Chavaria  (05:48):

Yes.

Cassie Gillespie (05:48):

How did, or let me ask it this way. What’s your understanding of do you have any recourse about that experience or is that something that we as American citizens can just expect to potentially be put through and that’s it. There’s nothing you can do about that?

Wilmer Chavaria  (06:04):

Well, for, for myself, I have no shortage of lawyers reaching out to tell me they’re ready to sue when I want to.

Cassie Gillespie (06:11):

Okay.

Wilmer Chavaria  (06:14):

I I’m not planning to do that for many reasons. I think it’s been stressful enough on my family. And if I’m here talking and I continue to speak with the media, it’s because I think that if I don’t do it, I don’t know who else will, and I think that while the media is paying attention, I will take advantage of that because people need to hear this, right?

Cassie Gillespie (06:36):

Yeah. Yeah.

Wilmer Chavaria  (06:37):

It’s not fun for me, but it’s what we need to do. And, but in terms of recourse, it really doesn’t, we have to know that many of these things that we took for granted liberties that as Americans you take for granted they’re not, they’re not guaranteed to you anymore. And that’s what I wish people understood. You can sue all you want. We can say something’s illegal, all you want, but the administration it’s clear now that, the administration doesn’t care. It will do things even if they’re illegal because they know one, that they have a supreme court that is a tool of, of this illegality.

Cassie Gillespie (07:18):

Yeah.

Wilmer Chavaria  (07:18):

And that even if you sue, you still can get away with a lot of things because you just do a lot of illegal things really quick. And by the time we stop you, the harm has already been done.

Cassie Gillespie (07:30):

Right.

Wilmer Chavaria  (07:30):

The damage has already been done. So let’s say something where I, I were to find some redress. We are where to I were to find some some justice out of, you know, if something was done wrong to me or other Americans are going through things that are illegal, and you were eventually to find justice, the harm, you’re never gonna repair that harm. It has already been done. The high stress, the terror inflicted on your family has already been done.

Cassie Gillespie (07:55):

Yeah.

Wilmer Chavaria  (07:55):

And I think they know that. And so I only wish more and more Americans begin to wake up, whether you are Democrat, republican, whatever you are, it doesn’t matter. Your rights are slowly being chipped away.

Cassie Gillespie (08:09):

Yeah.

Wilmer Chavaria  (08:09):

And that is not something to take lightly. And you might like Donald Trump, you might like this administration and I’m sorry, but the administration’s not gonna make an exception for you.

Cassie Gillespie (08:21):

Yeah. One of the things you said in the last episode that sounded like prophetic was this idea that people, especially people who are white, who are citizens, do not believe immigrants about their experiences, and that the people behind the desk or at a checkpoint have just an unbelievable amount of discretion to mess with people.

Wilmer Chavaria  (08:42):

Yes.

Cassie Gillespie (08:42):

And I, I think that comment really resonated with, with our listeners the first time you made it and has made this experience maybe even all the more powerful for people who are following your story.

Wilmer Chavaria  (08:53):

Yes. And I, and I will still say the same thing, that’s the biggest power to oppress people communities. And it’s not only about immigration, but it’s this also overlaps with with sexuality and marriage equality.

Cassie Gillespie (09:08):

Yeah.

Wilmer Chavaria  (09:09):

One of the most traumatizing things for me and my husband in this, in this situation was how belittling the experience was against the fact that we were married. Like from the very beginning, somebody made a face of disgust when we told them we were married, and they, they questioned and said, like, you, the two of you are married with a face of like gross type of type of thing.

Cassie Gillespie (09:35):

Yeah.

Wilmer Chavaria  (09:35):

And then eventually in the more formal interrogations, I was having somebody asked again, are you actually legaly married? And I wonder whether that question is asked to, of heterosexual couples of a man and a woman who’ve been married for, who’ve been together for 15 years and married for 13 years, whether you go out of your way to still ask them, are you legally married? When, when, that’s the word you’ve used from the beginning when you have their files.

Cassie Gillespie (10:04):

Yeah.

Wilmer Chavaria  (10:04):

Right there, they have,

Cassie Gillespie (10:05):

of course not.

Wilmer Chavaria  (10:06):

all my files right there.

Cassie Gillespie (10:07):

Yeah.

Wilmer Chavaria  (10:07):

And so it’s not only about immigration. It’s, it’s about all of the above. And and that is the, the big, the greatest power to oppress people who are different is in ways that are perfectly legal and that happen every day.

Cassie Gillespie (10:28):

Yeah.

New Speaker (10:28):

And that happen in hidden ways, not unintentional. Many people do it intentionally, but they can get away with it because nobody, nobody’s watching.

Cassie Gillespie (10:37):

Yeah.

Wilmer Chavaria  (10:37):

And that’s a, that’s, that’s one of the biggest problems here that nobody is watching, and you can get away with it.

Cassie Gillespie (10:44):

Yeah. Well, to that end, you know, I’ve talked to a lot of folks since your story kinda hit the news, predominantly white people, all citizens who say some version of like, oh my God, that’s awful. And then they’re not sure what next, you know. What to do from there. Not asking you to teach everyone how to be an activist, but I am wondering what your response is when you hear people sort of having an empathetic reaction to your experience, but not necessarily knowing how to translate that into action.

Wilmer Chavaria  (11:14):

I think white people, white people, and anybody who, not only racially, but anybody who believes they’re in a position of privilege. Yeah. whether it’s gender, whether it’s

Cassie Gillespie (11:24):

Sexuality

Wilmer Chavaria  (11:25):

Sexuality, whether it’s immigration, whether it’s education, whether it’s financial privilege, whatever it is, if you feel like you have some privilege, then you can get in a little more trouble and still be okay. And so,

Cassie Gillespie (11:39):

yeah,

Wilmer Chavaria  (11:40):

I want people who feel like something’s wrong to find ways to get in trouble, find ways to actually challenge some of the injustices with their own words, with their own bodies, with their own presence, with their own activism. I think more and more people need to be okay with getting in trouble. And you, if, if any trouble comes to you, even if you’re not looking for it.

Cassie Gillespie (12:02):

Yeah.

Wilmer Chavaria  (12:02):

even if you were not trying to get in trouble and you still did stand up for yourself, don’t bow down. Don’t just say yes, don’t just comply when you know that it’s an illegal request, especially if you have privilege, you might be a little safer if you have privilege. And so speaking out and saying no is a very powerful thing. Not normalizing compliance is a very powerful thing. And that’s what I want the listeners and everybody who feels that this is wrong to remember that when the time comes and when you’re asked to comply, to say no, just say no, don’t comply. When you know that it’s an illegal request. And, because that simply advances injustice when you comply, not just for you, but for someone else.

Cassie Gillespie (12:44):

Amazing. And I can tell that it’s in many ways your life’s work to not comply in so many of the, so many of the beautiful things You’re doing.

Wilmer Chavaria  (12:54):

I honestly don’t mean to, I don’t mean to, I just don’t. It’s, it’s a, I think anybody who who has any sense of morality, I think would do the same thing in my shoes. I just cannot willingly, for example, compromise the information of my students and families. How can I just have advocated for a sanctuary school’s policy a few months ago, having worked so hard to pass it, knowing that the core of that policy is to say that we’re not simply giving officers student and family information without a judicial warrant, then be detained and simply comply and say, here’s the family information. Of course, I can’t do that.

Cassie Gillespie (13:34):

Yeah.

Wilmer Chavaria  (13:35):

If I had done it, maybe nobody would’ve found out. Maybe, maybe I would’ve just gotten away with it and the officers would’ve, I acquired the information nobody would’ve known, and I would’ve been out of trouble.

Cassie Gillespie (13:48):

Yeah.

Wilmer Chavaria  (13:48):

Because nobody was watching. But that’s not that, what kind of, what kind of ethics is that, and what, how can I live with myself? How can I say that I have any sort of morality left in me, or compassion and sense of decency left in me if I simply were to do that? Just because no one’s watching. So saying no, often, sometimes it’s not a choice for me. It’s just what I’m supposed to do. And, and if I’m forced otherwise, I, I don’t, I don’t know the extent that I would be willing to go until I’m made to do something. But so far, I think the limit, the limit keeps being pushed. I keep being tested, and it’s pretty scary. It’s pretty terrifying. But I at least I can live with myself after it’s over. At least I can say I stood by what I say, I acted on what I preach, and so I can have the moral authority to ask my neighbors and friends and everybody else listening to me to do the same.

Cassie Gillespie (14:57):

Well, thank you so much for sharing that with us. It is a real, you know, people say this all the time, but I really mean it, it’s an honor to chat with you about this.

Wilmer Chavaria  (15:07):

Thank you.

Cassie Gillespie (15:11):

That was the superintendent of Winooski Schools, Wilmer Chavaria, discussing his detention and interrogation at the US border. And now we will bring back the episode we released earlier this spring where Wilmer and Caitlin McLeod Bluver, and two Winooski High School students talk about immigration as a human right.

Wilmer Chavaria  (15:31):

Immigration is a human right. Seeking safety is a human right. And it seems like we’ve forgotten that to the point that somebody even attempting to do it is seen as engaging in criminal activity.

Cassie Gillespie (00:15):

Hi, I am Cassie Gillespie and you’re listening to the Social Work Lens. The Social Work lens is a collaboration between the University of Vermont’s Child Welfare Training Partnership and the state of Vermont. We recently brought you an episode called Immigration 1 0 1 with Jill Martin Diaz from the Vermont Asylum Assistance Project. And in that episode, we examine the current rhetoric and the policy surrounding immigration through the lens of immigration law. Today we’re bringing you another episode on this topic, but this time, looking through the lens of schools and its impact on students to help us do that, we have four very special guests in the studio today, starting with two amazing young people here to talk to you about their experiences in the United States. We’ll call them Stacey and Gabby. Hello, Stacey.

Stacey (01:07):

Hello.

Cassie Gillespie (01:08):

Hello, Gabby.

Gabby (01:09):

Hello.

Cassie Gillespie (01:10):

Thank you for being here today. Stacey and Gabby brought along their teacher, Caitlin Macleod-Bluver, who is also the Vermont Teacher of the Year for 2025. Hello, Caitlin.

Caitlin Macleod-Bluver (01:21):

Hello. Thanks for having us.

Cassie Gillespie (01:22):

Thanks for coming. And they also brought their superintendent Wilmer Chavarria here in the studio. Hi, Wilmer.

Wilmer Chavarria (01:29):

Hi. Thank you for having me. Thank You

Cassie Gillespie (01:31):

We really appreciate that all of you took time out to come talk with us. So thank you. So when we have this many people in the studio, I get a little nervous about how we’re gonna get all of your opinions and your voices. So maybe let’s start with a question for everybody and maybe Stacey or Gabby’s willing to start off for us. The question is, you know, why is this issue important to you and why were you willing to come talk to us today?

Gabby (01:57):

Should I start?

Stacey (01:58):

Yeah.

Gabby (01:59):

Okay. So basically in Winooski I’d say like basic, like more, majority of every student in the school is an immigrant. And like, that’s my community. I’ve been here since third grade or there. And so my mom is also an immigrant. And when I first heard that like, deportations were gonna like come back stronger, I was really worried because that would basically like get rid of a place I’ve been living in for like six years now. And like, it just like scared me because my friends, like, a lot of them are immigrants too. And like if they go away then like I’m just left with nothing. Like the school would be empty. I don’t know, like parents would be gone. Everything would be gone in the town that Winooski is, or city, it would just, there’d be nothing left to it. Like the restaurants, the culture, everything there would be gone.

Cassie Gillespie (02:50):

Yeah. Thank you. How about you Stacey?

Stacey (02:53):

This was really important to me because as an immigrant myself, once I started hearing about like, the deportations from ice happening like anywhere, like in the street or like in your house the sanctuary school policy was important because it like ensured that when we were at school, like nothing could happen to us and that we couldn’t like be taken away by ice or something like that. And yeah.

Cassie Gillespie (03:24):

Yeah. That’s perfect. Thank you. Caitlin, how about you?

 Caitlin Macleod-Bluver  (03:28):

I mean, I’m a teacher. I care about kids’ learning and I care about kids’ success. And when the day after the election, I’ve never had students been so scared. And I spent the whole day comforting students as they cried, as they expressed fears around immigration and other fears. But I assured them at our school, we will do everything in our power to keep our students safe. You need to feel safe, you need to feel seen, you need to feel like you belong in order to learn.

Cassie Gillespie (04:02):

Yeah.

Caitlin Macleod-Bluver (04:03):

So I got involved with this because this is what my students needed and this is what I needed my students to feel in order for them to learn and succeed in school.

Cassie Gillespie (04:13):

Thank you. And Wilmer, would you tell us a little bit about why you’re willing to come talk to us today and, and then maybe a little bit about the sanctuary school policy that Stacey referenced?

Wilmer Chavarria (04:25):

Yeah, for the first question I am willing and very happy to be here and come talk to you today because it’s part of an effort to bring this message beyond Winooski. I am very proud of the Winooski community. I’m very proud of our students some of whom are here today for the level of commitment and care for one another. As you are hearing, it’s, it’s both about us and our own sense of safety, but it’s also about our community. It’s also about our peers, it’s also about our friends, our caregivers. And so I’m very proud of Winooski and I feel relatively safe in Winooski knowing that the community has our back. But I don’t necessarily feel like that in the whole of Vermont.

Cassie Gillespie (05:11):

Yeah.

Wilmer Chavarria (05:11):

And I think this message needs to get out there and being here and speaking with you today is part of that campaign that we are having indirectly with limited resources and limited time, you know? It would be nice to have more people bringing this message forward and not just leave it to Winooski to constantly be the one doing it. But if that’s not the case, we’re still gonna do it. And so that’s why this is important to me and I’m happy to tell you all about it.

Cassie Gillespie (05:39):

Yeah. Well, we’re here to hear it. So let’s start with tell me about the Sanctuary School policy and, and how that came to pass.

Wilmer Chavarria (05:48):

The Sanctuary School’s policy is one of the many ways in which you can tell your community that where you stand on this matter really. And the idea was not really mine. I was familiar with these, these approaches from my time in New Mexico during the first Trump administration. And we did a lot, a lot of work around this. But the policy was not necessarily one of the methods we used because our needs and our strategies were, needs were different in Northern New Mexico at the time. Sure. But I was familiar with it at the time. Now I joined a group of people a group of volunteers and activists and professionals coming together since the Fall talking about this as an idea. And so it was not me or Winooski really leading this idea. We would, we just attended some of the grassroots meetings and we were listening and providing our input and giving some ideas to the field in Vermont. And eventually, once we had a draft model policy it was time to pass it on to the districts to consider. And since I had been there all along, I said, it only makes sense that we bring this to Winooski right away. I don’t see why we should delay for the board to have this important conversation.

Cassie Gillespie (07:06):

Yeah.

Wilmer Chavarria (07:06):

And so we, we put it in the process right after it came out as a model policy. We modified it a little to adapt to the Winooski reality, so it’s not the same as a model policy. And we went from there. I’m happy to say that three months later we were able to formally approve it and call our school sanctuary school.

Cassie Gillespie (07:27):

And so what does that, what does that mean? Really.

Wilmer Chavarria (07:30):

Good question. Well, it means most of the things that people believe it means. But it also doesn’t mean that it’s an automatic shield against deportation in our schools. The much like a sanctuary city ice can go into a sanctuary city and apprehend someone and deport someone from a sanctuary city. So the fact that a city is designated a sanctuary doesn’t mean that ice cannot go in there. Ice can go in there.

Cassie Gillespie (08:01):

Sure.

Wilmer Chavarria (08:01):

Ice can go into our schools as well, even if we’re a sanctuary school ’cause They don’t really care whether we’re a sanctuary school or not.

Cassie Gillespie (08:08):

Right.

Wilmer Chavarria (08:09):

And they being known to not even respect their own policies or even respect US law and act with impunity. So we’re not naive to believe that we’re gonna have a sanctuary school’s policy and that our schools are fully protected. But there is a lot of power that we have as schools to hold our own staff and community accountable for how much we know about how to protect our students and how to exert our rights while in school. And that is what this policy does very well. It ensures that we as staff members, we as adults do everything we can, that we get educated and that we learn how to not only protect ourselves and each other, but also to make sure that the rights of our students and families are being respected. And the policy goes through 12 different ways in how we do that, including protecting educational records, protecting the facilities physically.

Cassie Gillespie (08:58):

Great.

Wilmer Chavarria (08:59):

Providing training, supporting families legally and so on. There are a lot of measures established in the policy.

Cassie Gillespie (09:04):

Thank you. And we’ll be sure to link to the policy and some other resources in our show notes for this episode. Caitlin, I think you wrote a piece advocating for this policy, right? And it was published in the Digger.

Caitlin Macleod-Bluver (09:15):

Yes.

Cassie Gillespie (09:16):

So we’ll link to that too, if, if people wanna read about it. Gabby and Stacey, were you part of the advocacy for this policy?

Gabby (09:25):

Yeah. we were at the meetings and also the school board meeting I guess. Yeah. And where everybody in the community came out to share their piece or just be there to support.

Cassie Gillespie (09:39):

Yeah. What does it mean to you that this policy passed?

Gabby (09:43):

It means that our school actually like, is looking at us, like things of us and cares for everybody within the community. And that like they are aware of like the dangers and like, even though it might not protect us fully, like they know, like they’re willing to give us the information we need to make sure we’re safe.

Cassie Gillespie (10:04):

Yeah.

Stacey (10:06):

Yeah. I also feel like it gives us a sense of like, security in school and like kind of removes some fear that a lot of students have about their immigration status and stuff. So what I think this policy, like why I went to the meeting to advocate for it, was so that students didn’t have to feel afraid when they were at school.

Cassie Gillespie (10:31):

Yeah.

Stacey (10:31):

And then to also like, know what they can do if anything were to happen to them or their friends.

Cassie Gillespie (10:37):

And is it okay to ask, did either of you feel afraid at school before this policy was passed?

Gabby (10:43):

I definitely did. I felt worried for like myself included because like, they don’t limit deportations to just like, I don’t know. And like, they just, they just take anybody at this point. And so like, I was worried for myself, but I was trying to like stay calm to like ensure people that like we are, I trust that my community will fight for us and that we will be safe here. So it was mix was scary and like, like, I don’t know, hoping for something else.

Cassie Gillespie (11:10):

Yeah. So you’re worried for yourself even though you’re a citizen and worried for the people around you and still trying to stay kinda hopeful. Am I hearing that right?

Stacey (11:18):

Yeah. Yeah. I was also like very worried ’cause I’m an immigrant and I don’t have like any really status in the US. And I’m like going to be like 18 soon. So it’s like a kind of a big worry for me. So like, wait, what did you say in the question again?

Cassie Gillespie (11:38):

No, that’s perfect. That’s perfect. Yeah. Let me ask

Stacey (11:42):

 I had Nothing to say.

Cassie Gillespie (11:43):

Oh, okay.

Stacey (11:43):

I forgot, I was asking the Question.

Cassie Gillespie (11:45):

Well, let me ask you another question and we’ll see if you remember and if you remember later, we can always come back to it. Okay. Okay. So what, if anything, about your personal story do you wanna share with our listeners? I think that many people who are watching these immigration proceedings and immigration orders play out. They don’t know people who are personally impacted by these. And so I think it’s really important that we create space to hear stories where people wanna share them.

Stacey (12:16):

For me, before Trump got elected, I had this one students where I wanted to sign up for like a school program. But like I wasn’t able to join in the end ’cause of my immigration status. I had to like prove that I wanted to stay in America. But like, it was a really like, good program and like, I like for like some things like, you need status. So like, I was just like, oh man, that’s okay. I couldn’t get in it. But now with like the new Trump policies,

Cassie Gillespie (12:51):

yeah.

Stacey (12:51):

It might be like a lot harder for me to do other things too.

Cassie Gillespie (12:55):

Yeah.

Gabby (12:56):

Yeah. Status is like way more important than some people think because like, like they wouldn’t know, especially if you don’t have any, like, anybody near you or any relatives that like, are affected by it. It’s, it’s really scary when people are talking about how like, getting a passport’s harder when like, I didn’t, I need to renew my passport. And like when people say stuff like that, it’s like, it’s scary for me because like, even if I think even if I did have a passport, if I didn’t, like the risk is still heavy, but I need something to protect me from, I don’t know, being deported and like my family because like, once you take, I’m pretty sure it’s like when they take your parents, like you can, like, I can’t stay here by myself, so obviously it’d have to go with her. So it’s a very scary thing. Yeah. And I don’t know, like you can just talk to anybody from our community, I guess, and like you’ll be able to understand like how frightening it is.

Stacey (13:48):

And Yeah. I wanna add on that too. Like, I also have to get my passport, passport renewed and I’ve been trying to for like a really long time ’cause it’s like really hard because I also have to renew the passport that I came from when I immigrated in the country, from the country that I immigrated from mm-hmm <affirmative>. So that already the process was already hard before the new policies. And then now after it’s like 10 times harder and like, they’re more likely to get like denied now because of all the new things.

Cassie Gillespie (14:19):

Is it scary to even kind of put the application in to like get yourself on the radar of the documentation folks?

Stacey (14:27):

Yeah. Like also that because like I’m black and I wear the hijab too, so like I have to like put like my passport picture and stuff. And I feel like if I like submit it at like this time, like I’d get like discriminated against like, oh, this person wants a passport. I don’t think so. Like that’s what, that’s my fear when I’m like doing all these processes and stuff.

Cassie Gillespie (14:50):

Yeah.

Wilmer Chavarria (14:51):

It is very real. And officers behind a counter have a lot of agency where their own prejudice can play out and nobody will ever know you. I have myself witnessed a lot of unnecessary hurdles in a lot of denials and a lot of things that really could never be explained other than a person just decided to exert their discretion and make it harder for me to exist and there’s no way you can challenge that. And that’s why a lot, most racism in this country goes unchecked because you can always say, no, I’m not a racist. No this person simply didn’t have the documentation or didn’t do, follow the process correctly, et cetera, et cetera. All kinds of excuses to exert that discretion. A lot of people think that brown and black people or immigrants just imagine things, but you’d be shocked if you lived for one day in our shoes <laugh> your imagination would have to be extremely creative to actually just live one day in our shoes.

Cassie Gillespie (15:52):

Yeah.

Caitlin Macleod-Bluver (15:53):

I think the level of fear that I’ve heard from students with legal status, even the, even since Winooski has passed the policy, as you know, the federal government continues with deportations of students on college campuses with green cards, et cetera. I have kids coming to me every day. Miss Caitlin, did you hear about this? Did you hear about this? I’m so scared. So like, yes. Passing a sanctuary school policy is so important. It’s one tool that we have as a school to show how much we care about our students and care about keeping our students safe. This continues and it’s still impacting our students. And while it was a wonderful showing of our community to stand up for injustice, you know, and to pass this policy, these injustices are continuing and it’s a very, none of this is hypothetical to our students.

Cassie Gillespie (16:43):

Yeah.

Caitlin Macleod-Bluver (16:43):

And then as a teacher, when kids come in, I’m scared. How do you go on teaching your lesson that day? How do you ask them to turn and, you know, take a test or read a book without recognizing their whole being and their wellbeing in the classroom.

Cassie Gillespie (16:58):

Absolutely. I mean, if someone’s having to make a plan about what they’ll do if they come home from school and loved ones aren’t there, or what they’ll do themselves. Right. If they’re picked up, how could you possibly concentrate on, what is it that you’re teaching, Caitlin? Is it history?

Caitlin Macleod-Bluver (17:14):

Yeah, English and history. Mostly <laugh>. Yeah.

Wilmer Chavarria (17:16):

Yeah. And that, constant feeling of not really of uncertainty, not really knowing, what’s gonna happen today, what’s gonna happen tomorrow? How are these laws changing? Like, not even lawyers can keep up.

Cassie Gillespie (17:31):

Yeah.

Wilmer Chavarria (17:31):

With the changes.

Cassie Gillespie (17:32):

Yeah.

Wilmer Chavarria (17:32):

Or even understand them or make sense of this whole mess. Now imagine somebody who’s not trained in law, somebody who’s a high school student trying to get their math trigonometry, homework done for tomorrow.

Cassie Gillespie (17:44):

Yeah.

Wilmer Chavarria (17:45):

I have two nieces who are in high school right now who are being expelled from the country in two weeks.

Cassie Gillespie (17:51):

Oh.

Wilmer Chavarria (17:51):

And they are the definition of a legal immigrant.

Cassie Gillespie (17:55):

Yeah.

Wilmer Chavarria (17:55):

The type of immigrant that the Trump administration continues to, and people love to say, follow the rules, follow the law.

Cassie Gillespie (18:02):

Right, right.

Wilmer Chavarria (18:02):

Well, we have people following the rules, following the laws, and now being victims of arbitrary decisions to simply say, sorry, we’re canceling your program and you have 30 days to leave and we’re gonna suspend your lives and we’re going to punish you for a simple political vendetta. And that the fact that somebody can disregard someone’s life, somebody’s humanity, a young person’s sense of belonging, sense of self, in all kinds of ways. And that what makes it, like Caitlin said, like a very real thing. It’s not hypothetical. And I’ve certainly don’t need to have four members of my family in my household to actually be victims of this arbitrary expulsions to care and to understand that this is our responsibilities, everybody’s responsibility. And I wish that every adult, every educational leader, every educator in the state understood that Don’t wait for your family to be a victim of that abuse, of that injustice. Let’s, let’s do it right now because you’re gonna be next.

Cassie Gillespie (19:08):

Yeah.

Wilmer Chavarria (19:09):

Your, your silence is, like we say, your silence is not going to protect you.

Cassie Gillespie (19:12):

Yeah. Yeah. We say in social work, like inaction is also an action.

Wilmer Chavarria (19:17):

Exactly.

Cassie Gillespie (19:18):

So I guess a question I have for all of you is from, you know, from your personal experiences and, and from where you sit either as a student or a teacher or superintendent, what do you think people get wrong about this issue? What do you, what do you want people to know that they don’t know?

Caitlin Macleod-Bluver (19:33):

One thing that I think people get wrong, and even talking to, you know, my liberal progressive friends is they think Vermont’s different. This is Bernie Sanders, Vermont. This is, you know, this is not New Mexico, as Wilmer said, this is not Florida. This is very real. There’s, we have families in our community that have already been detained and deported. We have students living in fear. There’s some level of Vermont exceptionalism, which is false. And I think everyone in positions of power really needs to be examining what they can be doing to support members of our community in these really uncertain times.

Cassie Gillespie (20:10):

Yeah. Thank you.

Wilmer Chavarria (20:11):

I think what, what I continue to see, thank you, Caitlin. What I continue to see other than that is people grossly downplaying the severity of the, the developments that we see day to day. Everybody since it’s, it feels gradual and it also feels like it’s not happening to me directly. So you think it’s not a big deal, we’re gonna wait until X, Y, and Z happens to start worrying about it and before we know it, we’re there and then we’re gonna downplay it again. It’s happening with the Secretary of Education right now, downplaying the fact that schools are being forced to sign an anti DEI certification. Yeah. And the only answer I’m getting is like, don’t worry, this is not a big deal. It’s fine. Just sign. No, I’m not gonna sign that. And I think you should not be so chill about it. So that’s what people are getting wrong about immigration as well and everything else that’s coming out. Yeah.

Cassie Gillespie (21:02):

Under the bigger bucket of human rights, right?

Wilmer Chavarria (21:04):

Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. Exactly.

Caitlin Macleod-Bluver (21:05):

It’s this level. And I think we heard it a lot when we were passing the sanctuary school policy of this will put a target on Winnie’s back. This is worse for our students. This level of fear, typical fear to drive in action or to ask to force people to be silent.

Cassie Gillespie (21:21):

Yeah. Well, and I think that’s the thing, right? Because there are people who are always worrying about this and Gabby and Stacey as you’ve shared, like day in, day out. So I think sometimes in those conversations about you know, this will target Winooski, it’s like, well, there are people who are already, you know, feeling like they have that target on them. Gabby and Stacey, is there anything you wanna share about what you think people get wrong? What you want folks to know?

Gabby (21:49):

A lot of the time people like they, okay, so when people are on social media and like maybe for some miracle deportation things like land on their TikTok or whatever, and like you could see for like two, like you can maybe like watch it for two seconds and see like maybe a person’s getting deported. But like what we did in our school, they showed us a video of like steps to take when is at your house. And I feel like that should be shown to more people because like, it really like showed the reality of it. Like, they can come in, they can take your parent, somebody you love, and then you’re just gonna have to watch it happen unless you like, comply with them. Like maybe like don’t let them in and stuff like that. But like, if they do get in and they can take them and you cannot fight back. And like when you experience that like in real life and you are that person who loses their parent and can’t see them for whoever knows how long it, it hurts a lot. And it’s not something you can like, like especially now, it’s hard to fight back and you can’t really do much with like, you just lose them. And like, I feel like people need to like have more empathy and like see that instead of just downplaying everything.

Cassie Gillespie (23:00):

Yeah. And believe, believe. How about you Stacey?

Stacey (23:06):

One thing that I see a lot of people get wrong is that, is that all immigrants are here illegally just kind of odd because like, like you can like come be an immigrant like from like with your parents and like you here came here when you were young and you grew up here, but like, they just never like, took the time to give you like status or anything. And some, and most immigrants that come here are like refugees as well. Like, they came here because they couldn’t live in their own country and they were suffering. So to like, to be like ignorant and just deport them and to go back to a place where they, it’s hard to live or they like, there’s like war and like shooting. You don’t know like when your next meal is or if you’re gonna be able to go to sleep at night. So it’s like every immigrant has like a different story. So like, yeah.

Cassie Gillespie (24:03):

Yeah. One of the things we talked about with Jill in the earlier episode is that asylum seeking is a legal pathway. You know, I think we’ve talked about this a bunch of different ways, but the, this idea that there are people here doing immigration like the wrong way or that they could have status, that they did it the right way, overlooks all of these barriers, including that there are plenty of people here without status who are doing it, quote unquote the right way.

Stacey (24:31):

But immigration processes regardless of the status are now being used as a trap. So like some of our students were mentioning how it’s scary to even follow the rules ’cause you don’t know… That is so real.

Cassie Gillespie (24:47):

Yeah.

Wilmer Chavarria (24:47):

My family is choosing to leave before the deadline because they say if you stay one day later, we’re gonna apprehend you where you’re gonna be open to deportation even though they have an application pending for asylum and also an application pending for residents with all of the requisites already fulfilled. But because there’s this ambiguous language, this in between this limbo, you are basically given two bad options and you’re being made to walk into a trap. So any move you do, either way, you are going to be it’s going to be used against you. And that is the model for immigration, the immigration approaches for this administration to make it so impossible for anybody to migrate legally.

Cassie Gillespie (25:34):

Yeah.

Wilmer Chavarria (25:35):

To ask for asylum to ask for the protections. Immigration is a human right. Seeking safety is a human right.

Cassie Gillespie (25:42):

Yeah.

Wilmer Chavarria (25:42):

And it seems like we’ve forgotten that to the point that somebody even attempting to do it is seen as engaging in criminal activity.

Cassie Gillespie (25:53):

I really appreciate you putting it so clearly like that. That’s really powerful. We need to hear that message more often. Okay. So we’re getting near the end of our time. I’m wondering maybe in closing, if each of you have a closing thought, it can be something you want people to walk away with or a ways that people can help and get involved. Caitlin, maybe we can start with you.

Caitlin Macleod-Bluver (26:15):

I’m very proud of our community for passing this school, and I think our students here feel supported by us and our community. I worry about immigrants with and without legal status throughout our state. Wilmer can correct me, but I think still Winooski is the only school that has passed the sanctuary school policy. We know that there’s immigrants throughout our state that have these questions. And I would love to see our state take a more active role in affirming our belief and our support for all of our students and their backgrounds and their experiences. This is not a secondary issue. This is central to their educational experiences.

Cassie Gillespie (26:54):

That’s super helpful. And one of the things we hear, I hear a lot is almost like a complacency at the individual level because the changes we wanna see need to happen at say the state level or the school district level. So if someone’s listening and they’re nodding along with you, but they’re not sure what their next step is, what’s your advice for how they might push their school district to move this forward?

Caitlin Macleod-Bluver (27:15):

I mean, I think one first step is to go to your school board and get in contact with your school board leaders, make public comment. I think there’s so much going on around education right now that it feels overwhelming on a state level. Yeah. And I would urge us to remember, you know, what Gabby and Stacey shared as this is very concrete for our students. And to really be thinking about the people in your community and how you are choosing this moment to step up and take action to support the people in your community.

Cassie Gillespie (27:42):

Awesome. Thank you Gabby. Stacey, what do you think

Stacey (27:42):

I was just thinking that like when so far like the things I’ve heard about the Vermont government, it’s, it hasn’t done anything to like, help anybody. So like thinking about the people who, might not be like directly impacted, but like, think about what your government’s doing. It’s not doing anything to help your life, not doing anything to help anybody’s life. It’s just ruining communities, ruining people’s lives. And like, I, like you should see the problem in that. Like, if your government isn’t even doing anything to help you personally, like realize what’s happening, like your government just use, well I’m being a little rude, but like, I haven’t heard anything, any good news in so long.

Cassie Gillespie (28:27):

Yeah.

Gabby (28:27):

And like I feel like everybody needs to like notice that like I don’t know what links exactly, but they are, there are some people who are willing, who are going to the State House to talk about some stuff, but maybe Miss Caitlin knows, but I don’t really, but they, they’re going to talk to some people at the State House and about some other policies that are being passed.

Stacey (28:49):

Thank you. I think people should stay involved and educate themselves more and like do something about it. Like, since Vermont it’s very, it’s like small, you know, compared to other states and it’s like easier to talk to your, like legislators and your senators or your mayor. And I think people should like, use like the community that Vermont has and like stand up for what’s right and like contact people or like go to the state house if you have the chance and like educate yourself more on like what you can do to help. Which I think that would be good.

Cassie Gillespie (29:30):

Thank you.

Wilmer Chavarria (29:31):

And I think leaders need to start leading. You shouldn’t have to go to a state house to ask for leaders to do their job. I shouldn’t have to be telling the Secretary of Education that we don’t capitulate to illegal demands. We shouldn’t have to be telling superintendents and school boards that they need to fulfill their mission to keep students safety and wellbeing as the top priority. Leaders need to begin leading. They are not supposed to only do something when there’s so much pressure on them from their constituents.

Cassie Gillespie (30:06):

Yeah.

Wilmer Chavarria (30:06):

That has been one of my problems so far where I’m seeing like the odd man out our district is seeing like the district that’s different. Because we’re the only ones. It would make a huge difference if we had just one more, two more <laugh> districts doing it. Right now we’re a group of, of, of entities trying to do the right thing. Yeah. But that’s not been the case so far. So I call on all leaders in Vermont to begin leading and if they cannot do it, if they’re gonna operate based on fear to step down and allow younger people who are excited to actually do the work to take on those positions.

Cassie Gillespie (30:42):

All right. Well that’s a really powerful place I think for us to close it. Let me thank you all so much for coming in today. We really appreciate you sharing your time and your stories and a little bit of yourself. So thank you.

Wilmer Chavarria (30:53):

Thank You.

Caitlin Macleod-Bluver (30:53):

Thank you, Cassie.

Gabby (30:54):

Thank You.

Stacey (30:55):

Thank you so much.

Cassie Gillespie (30:59):

The social work lens is produced by the University of Vermont’s Child Welfare Training partnership and the state of Vermont. Our theme music is composed and performed by local band Brick Drop. And our sound production and engineering has been brought to you by Egan Media Productions. We’d also like to give a special thank you to our in-house administrative production assistant Emma Baird for the social work lens. I’m Cassie Gillespie and we’ll see you next time.