Re-examining the Narrative Around Adoption: A Conversation with Chithra Jeyram

Transcript:

Chithra Jeyaram (00:00):

I was feeling the need of having a child. I was aching for this motherhood, and I wanted a hole fixed, but not thinking about, you know, the holes that are also being created.

Chynah Boise (00:14):

Hello, I’m Chynah Boise, and you are listening to the Social Work Lens. The Social Work lens is a collaboration between the University of Vermont’s Child Welfare Training Partnership, and the state of Vermont. Today we have a very exciting guest in the studio with us award-winning filmmaker, Chithra Jayaram. Chithra has been working with us at the Child Welfare Training Partnership, collaborating on a film screening of her film Love Chaos Kin, which will be shown in Burlington today, November 3rd. So once you’re listening to this, you’ve already missed it, but I will have in the show notes some information on where you might be able to catch the film in the future, as well as a Q and A that we are hoping to record with some of the subjects of the film who we will be talking about in this interview. A little bit about Love, Chaos Kin. It is a film that tells the story of an unexpected pregnancy, which leads an Indian immigrant mother to help her adopted twin daughters reconnect with their struggling white birth mother and estranged Native American father, forcing her to confront class divides and challenging her daughter’s sense of identity and belonging. Chithra, I saw your film at the Middlebury New Filmmakers Festival, and it was astonishing. So I’m, I’m really honored to share space with you and prior to coming into the studio, we were talking a little bit and you shared the three ways that your story and your history influenced your filmmaking. And I was hoping you could share that again with us now.

Chithra Jeyaram (01:56):

Sure. Chynah, thank you so much. I am thrilled to be in Burlington and also talking to you about my film journey and about this film. I was born in a small town and in my small town, you know, women just stayed home, took care of children, and that’s what I was seeing, everyone working around me doing that. So I never really saw role models of people doing jobs outside of house or even having a career. But fast forward, I became a physical therapist and I was working in that industry. And even then, if you had met me when I was a physical therapist, and, you know, you told me I would be making films, I’d be like, I’d just laughed at you and be like, whatever, <laugh>. That was never in my future. And, you know, I was, I came to the United States to get a PhD in physical therapy because I wanted to be a researcher. And I was here and maybe a semester or two into that. I was like, I wasn’t feeling it, and I felt a need for doing something that felt it needed to be larger, and I didn’t know what larger meant, but I really enjoyed being a physical therapist, and I was also having a hard time, like, what I wanted to do? I didn’t know what I wanted to do, and I got a license to practice physical therapy, and I was working, and I was trying to find what this was, and I went to a film screening in Washington, DC and I just saw people watching the film and just, I don’t even remember what this film was about, except that everybody in the room was so moved by what they saw in the film, and they were imagining another way life could exist and for that particular topic. And I just was like, I wanna do this. And, and that was all. And then it was a journey a few years to figure that out. But what I can look back and say, right now, were three sort of like guiding principles that affect every film I work on. One is because I come from healthcare and because of what that is, right? Like, I feel like filmmaking is also an act of service delivery. It is an intentional practice where we are thinking about somebody’s physical, mental, and social wellbeing. And so the care that goes into making the film, the care that goes into taking the film out for me feels like that practice and that is so internalized that you can’t take that out of me in some ways. Right? Second, you know, I, I kind of told you about where I was born. I was born in a small town in a very tight-knit family. And every decision that people were making in my family, like, I didn’t even know as a kid, I could have a career. Like, because I was, we look at as children and as the immediate families, where… We think of the things we can become, it’s our immediate family. When someone is coming out, we are like, oh, well my family accept this. Well, you know, everything we shape as children is affected by these people, and that that’s the type of adults we become. So for me, stories about family, stories within the family, stories about biological families, stories about chosen families, stories about disruptions in the family is what I want to look at, because it is a good microcosm of the world. It is these choices that shape our politics. The personal is political in that way. Lastly, I think I’m interested in films that are about what is possible. Like I told you about the first time when I was in that room where I was like, I could be making films, was that when people watch that film and they were just so moved about what can be, that is my guiding principle. Like if I’m starting a story, is there something in this story that can make everyone in the room reimagine something fundamentally, or something that they haven’t thought of in a certain way that that is going to make them learn more about it, ask questions, or talk to five other people about something, then I feel like that’s a story worth going into because it’s going from, Hey, I know this is happening, but I saw this film where a group of people did X, Y, and Z and that blew them away. Right? Like, that’s, that’s what, yeah. That’s, that is what filmmaking or the switch for me is all about. Yeah.

Chynah Boise (06:37):

Yeah. It’s so funny to me that, that you just presented it in that way of like, you see a film and then you wanna go and tell five people about it, because I feel like my colleague Sharon and I absolutely, we went around and talked to everybody about this film, and then we had this realization. We were like, oh my God, everybody needs to see this. It’s, it’s not only a, a gorgeous film and so beautiful, it’s a story that is so beautifully told, but also there are so many messages within it that I think are so important. As somebody, I, as somebody who teaches adoption competency with adults, I saw so many things that I was like, these are the messages that I wanna be conveying to the families that I’m working with. And we talked a little bit before we started recording about how I, as an adopted person had my own thoughts and opinions about adoption that have grown and changed over the course of the last several years as I’ve, you know, learned about traumatic separation and family systems. And, and now that I have more information, I have a different perspective on adoption than I did before. And I heard that you also had a journey yourself through this filmmaking process. Would you mind sharing a little bit about your, your shifting perspective in adoption?

Chithra Jeyaram (08:01):

Yeah. Like, I don’t think I got to this film as a filmmaker. I was researching as a prospective adopter because I wanted to adopt. And at this point in my life, I had recently divorced and I was, I was out of a visit with my gynecologist who was like, you need to freeze your eggs. And I was like, no, I don’t need to freeze my eggs <laugh>. And like, I’m not trying to get pregnant. And It was like, but what if you change your mind? I was like, no, I’m not gonna find a partner for doing this… You know, it was like, I was very clear I wasn’t going to go down that path, but looking back, I also feel like I was, I was incredibly, I don’t know… I Definitely felt like I had, I was thinking, oh, this is not gonna.. Like, yes, I can obviously go and adopt and that’s going to be better for everyone. Like, I, I, you know, now looking back, I’m like, well, whatever, what were you thinking? But that was what I thought, like that was, I felt like, you know, freezing an egg, going and looking for love, all of that felt like, Hey, to have a baby, you would do all of this. But somehow adoption was a simpler, slow, easier process. And I was so uninformed, right? Like, this is, this is what started this journey. And I was looking for information, and I thought at that point, my barriers were that I was a person of color. I was an immigrant living in the United States, even though I was a citizen. I didn’t go to school here. I was like, I went to school in India. What I learned was the history of India, what I learned in school and the peers I have, or culturally a certain way. And having lived in the US long enough, I was like, you know, whiteness or blackness is so, you know, this the horrific history. And I didn’t go to school here. I don’t know, I, I felt like I didn’t have the information as a human being to raise a white, black or a mixed race child because I have not soaked in being American in that way. Right? I didn’t go to the school system. I don’t know what, what all of that looks like. I can, I know that in India. And then I also, as a person living here long enough, I won my language, I won my culture. And I’m like, you know, but I, you know, I was like, how is this going to happen? And I thought I needed guidance in this. And I was looking for parents who, who have migrated and who who have adopted here, do those stories exist? That’s how I found this Huffington Post article. And I reached out to Lakshmi, and almost a few of our emails were purely about the process for a prospective adopter. What should one do? How are you navigating this? That type of questions. The more I spoke with her, and Lakshmi at this point was getting a lot of people like me.

Chynah Boise (11:03):

Mm. I bet.

Chithra Jeyaram (11:04):

like people like me who are reaching out to her. And Lakshmi was at this point a few years into, you know, again, all of this is, I am talking in hindsight, I didn’t know Lakshmi was thinking like this at that point, right? But Lakshmi has now you know, the children were seven, so she’s been an adoptive parent for about six years now. Has, you know, tried to.. Or deeply thinking about what openness and adoption looks like for her family, but reading a lot about adoption trauma and having educating herself from, adopted people’s perspective. And so I am like the hundredth or the thousandth person that is reaching out to her. So she kind of threw a few questions at me, like, why do you want to adopt? Or, you know, like, beyond, beyond you wanting a child, why are you adopting? And have you read more of my blog posts, like kind of guiding me to go do a little more searching? And so I think she planted right seeds in asking me to question my privilege as a person who may have a little bit of economic means to make this happen, even though I felt like I was knocking off freezing eggs in a way, <laugh>, and I wasn’t doing that with this. So she definitely tickled those questions in me. And then… But as a filmmaker, this whatever Lakshmi was speaking or was things, I haven’t seen a person of color adopt a parent in a story. And I think it was checking off all of these things. I was talking to you earlier about like, I felt like this was a family that was doing something, or in a circumstance that I felt was important for us to witness if they were willing to allow us to witness. And I felt like there were things that were happening that if they were willing to let us talk or film, there’s something there. So I, I reached out and I went and met them, and I remember the first time I met them, Lakshmi didn’t say yes to filming. She was like, it’s not just about me. The children need to like you, and they need to want to be around you. And that is something I can’t make a decision for. Then I have a spouse who’s not necessarily on board with even me blogging about things <laugh>. So, she was like, it’s not me giving permission, because, she’s like, I want my story out there, and I feel like we need to have a dialogue, because she was like, as someone who has gone through a lot of this, she felt alone in this process, and she felt like we were not having conversation. So intellectually she was invested in the film, but she felt it was not her decision to make.

Chynah Boise (13:47):

What was that like for you to hear somebody at that point advocating for youth voice in that way?

Chithra Jeyaram (13:54):

It was eye-opening in the sense, like, you know, I’m someone who, if I’m hearing something that I’m not heard, I at least wanna know why. Like I’m, instead of, it wasn’t, it was, there was not a resistance, there was a curiosity, and I wanted to engage deeper. So that’s why I wanted to go. And then when she said, if the children don’t want to be, then it’s not my decision that also it didn’t make sense for me from the adoption angle. It made sense for me as a filmmaker that every individual who’s going to be in front of the camera has agency to say yes or no. And I felt like this person was adjacent to that. Like, even though at that point I wasn’t thinking about, oh, wow, she is doing, you know, what she should by within this space, within the adoption space. I don’t think I had the intellectual capacity to understand that at that point, but I did go and she agreed to that, you can bring your camera, but if anyone else is uncomfortable, we are not doing anything. Like that was what we agreed on. And we went, and the kids and I got along just like, literally instantaneously. So that was, that was a easy, but what happened on that day that again, reinforced why this film needed to be made was they were talking about mommy B all the time, and I was like, who’s mommy B? And then I was like, oh, that’s birth mom. And the fact that it was common, like, it was just casual conversation, like, mommy would like to know about this person, or like, it wasn’t, it wasn’t like, it wasn’t taboo. It was, it was just like she was there even though she wasn’t physically there. And that was, that was a surprising element that I didn’t realize how casual and present, you know, she was. And then the second part was these, these children looked white and they were eating, eating food with their hand. Like I do in a way that like, you know, in, I don’t know how to explain this except that I’m from south of India and we eat with our hands, we lick our fingers, we, you know, we, there’s a certain way South Indians eat that is such a very specific way of eating. And these kids were eating, like I was eating as a kid. And it felt, it felt so familiar and felt like my childhood. And that was, and at this point, I had seen a bunch of adoption films of children from China, or children from Korea, and the children felt like they had no cultural experience of, of their culture. And I was wondering, what about these kids’ culture? Are they not getting, like, what is, what is a white culture like, you know. By them, they’re functioning like me. Then, what is it that is not coming? Like I was, those questions were definitely coming into my head. And I was able to… I don’t know for a way, see what a child from Asia was missing. Well, if they’re in a white home, if that makes any sense.

Chynah Boise (17:05):

Yeah.

Chithra Jeyaram (17:05):

Right. so that was interesting that how Indian they were in their, in their upbringing. And then when I started, I just had an interview with Lakshmi, and Lakshmi was, I thought, would… Lakshmi was raising a lot of questions in the first interview. Like, for instance, I remember very clearly she saying in the very, this was in 2017, my first time, you know, formal interview. And she’s like, you know, looking back, I don’t know if I should have given these, given the children Indian names. Like, you know, she was, she was, she was like, I shouldn’t have, like, I wish I’d known more that. That they should of, you know, they’re, they’re given names from birth were they middle names? But she was having guilt of having even changed their names. And she was like, I wish, I wish I had known more about the foster care. I wish I did not do private adoption because it’s a dark, like, she was telling me things that I wasn’t expecting her to speak off in the very first interview. And she was also talking about things like, if I didn’t have these kids, I probably would, probably would’ve just been with other Indian people all the time. But I feel like they need, yes, I know that if they go out of my house, the children are in a white environment, but I feel like even in the family setting, the children need to see more white families. And, you know, they need to see, you know, yes, they’re seeing their dentist and, you know, but I even in this familial setting, so she’s like, I am making an effort to have friends, white friends, and, you know, so I, she, you could see that she was trying and do, even though it didn’t fully, again, resonate, I didn’t fully understand, but I was interviewing somebody who was talking about, I wish I did things better.

Chynah Boise (18:56):

Yeah.

Chithra Jeyaram (18:56):

From that framework, right. From our first interview of being super vulnerable. And I think the first time I spoke to her and her spouse, he was like, you know, it’s nobody ever questions, can a parent love all their children equally? We believe they can love all their children equally, you know? So similarly, I think my kids can love two sets of parents equally.

Chynah Boise (19:20):

Wow.

Chithra Jeyaram (19:21):

So he’s like, I don’t have insecurities about them getting to know their, you know, blood parents, because why can’t that be true if this is true?

Chynah Boise (19:32):

Yeah.

Chithra Jeyaram (19:33):

So, so they were very, they were very honest about where they were, and they were asking questions that I did not. So, and then over time, like, so, so, so right from the get go, this film was going in a certain way because of the people that were, and then when I started filming them more and more, I started seeing how little things, like, I think in the film there’s a scene where the children… they’re counting money and they’re like, if we save, we’ll get one for you and one for mommy B. Like, everything was always like, they were always thinking about her. They were always talking about her. Sometimes it was joy, sometimes it was, there was, you could feel the ache and, you know, I’d be with the camera behind me, like really crying, seeing, you know, seeing, you know, yes. Even in this family where they can speak, where there is, there’s all of this, the pain is still there. And so then how intense must this pain be if you can’t speak off, if you can’t have this access or if this was in there? So that, that was starting to make me question about adoption. Like, like, who am I to be? Like, I was feeling the need of having a child. I was aching for this motherhood, and I wanted a hole fixed, but not thinking about, you know, the holes that are also being created. Like if a family had to relinquish children, family or parent relinquishing children who are constantly reckoning with this decision, right? Like, I’m sure, you know, when they’re walking on the streets and seeing a kid thinking about their child, like, how is my child, what is going on? Like, you know, whether they’re saying that out loud or not, it’s there. And the children, I’m… You know, at every instant. But if they had the space of conversation, maybe they’re not thinking outright about rejection, but if they didn’t have that conversation, they’re probably thinking about every single day, if not more frequently, somebody did not want them or made a choice of, right. And if they are in the place as the kids and the, they know that they were, they were loved, and they, you know, they were loved, they, that this choice was made for the… But that still doesn’t minimize what the void.

Chynah Boise (21:57):

Right.

Chithra Jeyaram (21:57):

So that really shook me. It really shook me, because I don’t necessarily think existing media is giving us a sense of that in a way that is profoundly important, and that is really important for prospective adapters to know. And to, I, in the beginning, in the first two years, I didn’t clearly say I wasn’t… I was like, oh, this is there. That means this is a lifelong journey. That means I should be, if I’m going down this path, I need to be willing to make this happen. I should be more like Lakshmi. Initially, that’s how I used to think about it. Then the longer I filmed, the economic disparities were starting to become really evident because in, in the first few months I did not film with, with the birth mom, I had needed to have access to the birth mom. So I was like, Lakshmi was like, this is half the story we’re talking about Mommy B, but I need to know mommy B. So when, when that door opened and I started having conversations from, that’s when the whole systemic structural American problems became even more evident, right? We are a society where we don’t have, you know, our parental leave system, our support system for first, second, third year of you know, childcare, which is significant, right? Like, these are very, very young people. We, we don’t have you know, basic minimal <laugh> income or some sort of a way a parent can care for child. And be employed and, you know, and then if we add to this, if there were, you know, mental health challenges or if someone has any other need, right? Like if your pregnancy resulted in postpartum depression and you need a little extra care, if you are a single parent or any number of things, right? Like if you just need, if one thing is off, it’s a domino effect. Like, so we don’t have the support. So I was starting to see the more I was looking at other families and stuff, even though, even though it seems like for a good number of children, adoption seems to be, you know, the best outcome. I also was starting to see that for a, for a good, for a significant number of children and families, the permanence with which adoption displaces everything was harmful, then helpful. And it was starting, like, I was starting to have real questions about what about motherhood am I chasing? Instead of thinking about how do I fit into this adoption system and make adoption work in the most efficient way can and the most ethical and caring weight can. I was like, why should I even, why are we not having a different way of thinking about adoption? Why do we need to unseat parents from the birth certificate? They are the parents. Period. Okay. If we need to add other adults in the care of the children, can we add instead of, you know…

Chynah Boise (25:03):

yeah.

Chithra Jeyaram (25:04):

Can we add if we need to bring in more people, like even within the adoption system, the parents are the parents.

Chynah Boise (25:11):

Yeah.

Chithra Jeyaram (25:12):

You can have secondary legal guardian. You can have whatever else added, like that was, like, all of those processes still feel very harmful for me. So I have come to a place personally, and I, you know, and this is kind of really weird, that I am, you know, doing social outreach for a film or adoption. And whenever I go to the Q and A’s when I’m telling people I have decided not to adopt <laugh> and I think there was one q and a where I was like, the longer I spent time with the children, I, I literally said this. I said, the longer I’ve spent time with the children, the less I want to adopt. And everybody <laugh>. I was like, oops, that came out wrong. I was like, this has nothing to do with this, the children. And it was like, like, let me explain. And I was like telling them like, no, no, no. That’s not what I meant.

Chynah Boise (25:59):

<Laugh>. Yeah.

Chithra Jeyaram (26:01):

But the longer I was with the film, the less I wanted to adopt. Because adoption in the way we are practicing, it still feels very you know, very, It’s not about, it’s not holistic. It’s not about building a village, you know? And, and I feel like there’s a different framework. I may come back to it, but now I’m more interested in, within the social networks that I’m part of, raising children is hard enough and I wanna be a part of village and people that I know I want to be this adult that is stepping in when there are youth that are part of which, I mean, I’m a part of a huge ecosystem, right? Like within that ecosystem, what’s my role to fill in? ‘Cause that’s how people used to do a generation or two ago if there were these kind of adoptions happening where… You know, so yeah, like, I guess it’s a long-winded answer, but that’s where like, I feel young people need adults and, and there’s many ways to be that adult. And that’s, that’s the place I want to be. And I feel the ways that I can contribute right now is how can we get this film in front of prospective adopters where if this happened to me in the making of the film, maybe this will happen to them in the watching of the film to question. And if you still are, then maybe they’ll stop at where I was maybe a year or two into it, right? How can I do within the system the best possible outcomes for all of us? Because, because everybody in the within this, right? Like the, the adopted person and the person who, the person or people who relinquished, and the people who have adopted, all of them are navigating different versions of, you know, you know, a whole being created or a whole being closed, and they’re all going to be going through this as long as they’re living. This is not a one time thing. And as their lives are evolving, what this is, what part of this is at the forefront will be there. And this is, this is a new family that all of them have become a part of, and they all have to care and be there. And I think there’s a, there’s an analogy that I think there was once there was a filming situation, I think Kat had come and visited the kids and gone, and I was doing an interview, and it was Anju who said, I think I like mommy be better than Lakshmi, or something like that, she said in the interview, and it was pretty loud. And I, I pretty sure Lakshmi Lakshmi heard that. And then I kind of did an interview again with Lakshmi, and I was like you know, I think you heard what Anju said, and how does that make you feel? She’s like, she’s allowed to say that because sometimes I feel that about him and I don’t know, like sometimes I wish he was <laugh>. Sometimes I hate him <laugh>, you know, but that’s what family is for. Like, you, I don’t like, if I don’t like what he’s doing, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to, you know, like I, you know, this, there’s a million things I like about him and this moment, that’s how I feel. And she was also saying like, we don’t choose our, like when I marry someone, we don’t choose our in-laws. They come, that’s part of the package. And we learn to love them. Adoption is like that, like which we, the children come, but with the children come, parents, grandparents, extended families, half siblings, they’re all part of this inherited family. We’ll have our political differences, we’ll have whatever, but just like we learned to live with our in-laws. Like that’s how she thinks about that. About, you know… and same thing with Kat. Like Kat is like, these are parents I’ve chosen for my children because they’re giving them a life that I wish I was able to give that, but I still want access to my children. I still want to be in my children’s life. And therefore I will also like, you know, like, just like I, I am accepting the rest of my, like, and that for me is a healthy framework, right? Like I feel like, you know, going back to in terms of, you know, telling a story, what can we do within this given system? And I think that’s what all these adults are trying to do. And the kids are also, you know trying to do. And, and for some, for some prospective adopters that might be great for them, they’re like, yes, that’s what I wanna do, right? Like, I wanna adopt, I care for this. I wanna make the best world possible. And there might be some people like me that are like, what if the system can be better than it is? And what can we do to, you know, maybe we need to stop amending the birth certificates. Maybe we need to have a way that, you know, can there be more than one set of legal guardians? Can there be shared responsibilities? Maybe, you know, can, we can start thinking of a different framework, right? Like, so, I feel like that’s, you know, and, and everybody will be tapped at wherever they’re coming into the story from Yeah. So that’s, so in that sense, this, you know, this is, this is a film that’s showing a family that is in the process of navigating these choices because they’re all clear that everybody’s affected right within the process. And it’s not saying this is one solution. This is saying that this is, this is, adoption is a messy, messy world. And gosh, I got to make this film without knowing it was a messy world <laugh>. And now having known it’s a messy world by putting it out there, can we shake people to engage with it right. Where they are from? And, make that process a better process. I don’t, yeah. That, that’s where I feel my, the film’s purpose is. And, and that’s where I feel like when I’m coming on the stage and saying, I didn’t choose adoption, I wanna be that counter narrative to just because this is a system, we should therefore sit with it and not imagine an even better scenario than what’s in the film.

Chynah Boise (32:53):

Yeah. Wow. Oh my gosh, I feel like I could listen to you talk all day. I, I do just want to, I guess, capture some of the, the really important key points that we discussed beforehand. And, and that came up now in terms of the, the mighty purpose that your film holds, which is really shifting narratives. You, you touched on it with your own narratives that you brought to the adoption world. And, and even to some extent, Lakshmi, even though she, she clearly came into this with some level of enlightenment that I think we could all <laugh>, we could all kind of aspire to, because the social emotional learning that, that she’s exhibited is amazing. And I think that a lot of it is this like deeply entrenched narrative, at least here in America, about what adoption looks like, what purpose it serves, as you mentioned. It’s, it’s been a longstanding narrative that the, the goal of adoption is to complete a family or to build a family. And when you take a pause and look at what that means from the other side, what sacrifices and what losses are happening in order to build or complete that family I, I hope that as you’re saying that people can pause and be able to look at that and grapple with that. And the incredible complexity because it is, it’s not just one thing. You had also mentioned you know, it’s, it’s easy enough to say, you know, that a child was chosen. And I think that is a narrative that we try to give adopted children a lot of the times. And that doesn’t negate the grief and the loss and the confusion or that feeling, like you said, of being not chosen <laugh>. I was chosen by one family, but that means that I was not chosen by my first family. And, and the reality that that lives with an adopted person after they’re no longer an adopted child, but now they’re an adopted adult. I, it was hitting me when you were talking about the birth certificate because just a couple of years ago, I had to get my birth certificate for something, I can’t remember what it was for. But I looked at it and it had my adoptive parents’ names on it. And that was that was a moment for me because I was like, there are two people who should be here, and there’s no trace, no evidence. And what does it mean when we have those gaps in our story? Or some, somebody at some point chose to rewrite our story for us. So I’m, I’m also so happy that you were able to include the voice of the children in your film the way that you did. And I hope that we’re able to incorporate youth voice and choice more in this conversation as well.

Chithra Jeyaram (35:59):

Can I add a couple of things, right? Like,

Chynah Boise (36:00):

yeah.

Chithra Jeyaram (36:01):

You know, I, and I don’t know, like this may or may not make sense in this, right? I think there’s another sort of dimension of adoption that was also bothering me when I was making this film, is this assumption that somehow, you know, and I think this is also this adjacency to abortion rights, right? Like this idea of somehow there are sometimes children can be un born out of unwanted whatever situations. This can be, and somehow there needs to be some sort of sanitizing or cleansing of this, you know, historically that was, you know, prior to when, when it’s crazy that we are back into when abortion is illegal versus… you know, and then there’s also I think to some extent what is good parenting, which … With this very… so there’s this judgment lens around this thing that it’s okay for some people to therefore relinquish children because it’s better for everybody. It’s better for, you know, that. And I think we are coming to a place where a little bit of that is also coming back into the forefront in, in not good ways. So that, that is there. And I think, I don’t know how our political scenarios are changing. It might come back a little more as far.. The kids, the children’s wise, It, it’s always, it was they always, like, every day we go into micing, there, there, there’s always option for micing. And I always tell them, no matter what your parents tell you or not what you say today, you can still decide not to. And they’ve, and they have many times refused things and accepted things. And I think for the children, a lot of edit choices, I… There, there was a lot. I filmed 300 hours. There’s a 98 minute film with a lot <laugh>. There’s a lot that didn’t make it into the film. And there are things that I feel I intentionally chose not to put in the film, even though it might have been, you know, I don’t know, sensational for a film or because I was like, these, the young people, you know, they, when I started filming, they were 7, 8, 9. They were, they were growing, but they were growing in front of the camera. No matter what adults, however, consenting and thoughtful, and they were all the adults were when it came to giving permission, but it’s still, the kids still, you know, didn’t choose what they choose. They didn’t choose to have eight years of their life in front of the camera. And so I, that was a very hard decision at every stage to be like, I have a niece and a nephew. I’m not a parent. Right? Like, to be like, would I put this out if it was my niece or nephew would… And then they were, my nephew’s a little bit older and you know, I’ve seen like, like even with him, when I am taking a picture and if I wanna put it on Facebook, I would be like, can I put it on Facebook even? And the older he got his nose, were more often, and I don’t, and, and my brother on the other hand, none of his, his child’s picture, there’s zero pictures of her anywhere. Like his family is a no on that. Right? So coming from that sort of being in that as an adult who is asking these questions, so a lot of edit choices were shaped by how, you know, I was having my brother saying absolutely no to anything about his daughter on the public, and my sister having that and my nephew having that. So I was like, would I do this if these were, you know, if these were family, which by this point they’re family for me, right?

Chynah Boise (39:44):

Yeah.

Chithra Jeyaram (39:44):

Like, so a lot of those, a lot of things didn’t get into the film because I just felt No, and even with the girls as if we were finishing, we were talking, I’m like, Hey, there are things your 7-year-old self said that maybe your 13-year-old self doesn’t agree with. Let’s respect the 7-year-old self because that was the 7-year-old self. And we talk about it that maybe your 20-year-old self may not like any of this thing in the film. And that’s valid and you know.

Chynah Boise (40:14):

Yeah.

Chithra Jeyaram (40:14):

And if you want to revisit and for you to talk about it, we should, but we don’t know. Like, so at this point, that’s where they are.

Chynah Boise (40:24):

Mm-Hmm <affirmative>.

Chithra Jeyaram (40:24):

They really like the film. They, well, like what it is there, there are things that they’re like, it’s embarrassing for that. I’m that I said that or I did that, which I’m like, I, I agree. If I was still <laugh>, if I, you know, like I would feel the same way. Right. But I don’t know. But I, I am open to a, a moment when there, I don’t know, 22, 23, where they’re looking back and they may hate every aspect of it. It’s, it’s,

Chynah Boise (40:50):

yeah,

Chithra Jeyaram (40:50):

it’s possible. And it’s possible that they want to rewrite a narrative and I talk to them like, like, that’s power. If you want that, maybe this is not, this is not the most representative story. This is a story where your parents were learning how to be for, for, for you. And they were, you know, both your birth mom and your adopt mom. And this is their version of how they were shaping. And at that moment, you are also telling us what that felt for you. But maybe if you are looking at this as a 20-year-old person, this may feel…you may have a very different POV about it. And I would be fascinated to see what that looks like and talk to them at that point.

Chynah Boise (41:33):

Yeah.

Chithra Jeyaram (41:34):

But I would be totally okay if they’re like, the sucks, you know, <laugh>

Chynah Boise (41:38):

<Laugh>, yeah. Similarly, I’m interested in knowing how this experience for them will shape their relationship with their adoption journey as they, as they grow.

Chithra Jeyaram (41:49):

Yeah.

Chynah Boise (41:51):

that’s so interesting.

Chithra Jeyaram (41:52):

Yeah. And, and, and even, even in through the making, I can see every single one of them having constantly evolving what this, what what adoption is for them, what they are. And, and, and, and I think even without the camera, that would’ve been the case. We all grow and change. Right. And we are lucky that they allowed us to witness that a little bit. Right. And, and then so that, that is interesting, you know, dynamic that I thought I wanted to share. And, and I, I don’t remember. There was one more, I I have no idea what, I forgot what, there was one, one more thing that when you were saying I wanted to sort of touch on that. Oh, I definitely felt like, you know, race and class comes in this a lot.And and more class than race, I think because because it’s whiteness and brownness. I don’t know, I feel like race might have played a bigger role of if there was someone who was black in the film in a way that it is not in, in this situation. But class came up so much and I find as American society, we, we are not good at talking about class.

Chynah Boise (43:02):

I agree. <Laugh>

Chithra Jeyaram (43:04):

We’re not good. And I think the film is allowing for difficult conversations about it.

Chynah Boise (43:09):

Yes.

Chithra Jeyaram (43:10):

And I think couple of things that has been happening in the recent in New York City that I think Momani eating with his hands and the whole thing around it was super interesting. ’cause We have a three minute scene in my film that people are eating with their hands and, but it’s not a poli like in the film, it’s not a political conversation. It’s almost like mom is learning how to what, what… You know… So we the parents and the children are talking with me about all of these things. So I don’t know, at some point we might do some social media campaign around the intersectionality of all of these things.

Chynah Boise (43:45):

Yeah.

Chithra Jeyaram (43:46):

but the last festival we were in, the kids just took over the social media for the film in a way that I was so happy because it was like their, they were like, they were, they were sharing and storing and posting from Love Kin’s Instagram account. And they, it was it, for the first time it felt like the girls were thinking this was their first person account, and that gave me a lot of peace.

Chynah Boise (44:14):

Yeah.

Chithra Jeyaram (44:14):

You know? Yeah. They were not thinking this was somebody else’s film. They were like, they’re like, if you’re pushing this, can we collab with this? I’m like, yes, please do, do. Right.

Chynah Boise (44:25):

Yeah.

Chithra Jeyaram (44:25):

And then at Chicago, south Asian, they, I think more than two thirds of the question, they were like, they, they were like fielding the questions. So in those ways, I feel at this moment, the girls feel like this is their story. But I, I say that with caution because I’m like, they are really growing human beings whose positions are going to evolve and they should. And we can’t have a critical discourse if like, when they’re 20, they come and say that, you know, they are like, and I will gladly be like, you know, if we can have a social commentary with them looking at a certain scene in the film and thinking about, and, you know, if we need to go back to some of the raw footage to be like, is there a different way we could have done this with the girls talking about it? That’s, that’s important.

Chynah Boise (45:11):

Yeah.

Chithra Jeyaram (45:12):

You know, and I would be open to that type of conversations.

Chynah Boise (45:16):

Yeah. It’s so clear to me how important this film was and is for you. I love hearing you talk about it. It really does sound like family to you. And I, I really appreciate that and I’m really looking forward to hearing from everybody tonight at the Q and A hearing from Lakshmi and from Kat and the girls, and hearing them tackle, tackle our audience questions. I’m looking forward to watching the film again, like, I’m so excited. Thank you so much for being here.

Chithra Jeyaram (45:54):

Pleasure is mine. Thank you so much for making time and this is beautiful.

Chynah Boise (46:00):

The social work lens is produced by the University of Vermont’s Child Welfare Training Partnership and the State of Vermont. Our theme music is composed and performed by local band Brick Drop, and our sound production and engineering has been brought to you by Egan Media Productions. We’d also like to give a special thank you to our in-house administrative production assistant Emma Baird for the Social Work lens. I’m Cassie Gillespie, and we’ll see you next time.