Sibling Aggression & Abuse

Transcript:

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (00:00):

It’s funny that you mention that because when we do trainings on this topic, we often ask the participants in our trainings if they’ve ever, if you know, for training practitioners, clinicians, have you ever had a case that involves sibling aggression or abuse? And usually around 75% of people raise their hand. And then we ask them, have you ever had any training on this topic? And usually maybe one person raises their hand. It’s usually once. So we’re happy that we’re able to provide this for people at this time.

Cassie (00:36):

Hello, I’m Cassie Gillespie, and you’re listening to the Social Work Lens. The Social Work Lens is a podcast produced by the University of Vermont’s Child Welfare Training Partnership and the state of Vermont. Today we have two exciting guests from the Sibling Aggression and Abuse Research and Advocacy Initiative, also known as SAARA from the University of New Hampshire here to talk to us about harmful sibling dynamics. So let me give a warm welcome to Dr. Karina Jenkins Tucker and Dr. Tanya Whitworth. Hello.

 Dr. Tanya Whitworth (01:08):

Hello, Cassie. Thanks for having us.

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (01:10):

Hi, Cassie. Thank you.

Cassie (01:11):

Thanks, so excited to have you here. What I’d love to do is start with hearing a little bit about each of you who you are and maybe a little bit about your role and how you got involved in this area of practice.

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (01:23):

Sure, thank you. I I’m the director of this initiative and prior to this position, I was a professor in the Department of Human Development and Family Studies at the University of New Hampshire. My research was focused on sibling relationships initially focused on their, their supportive behaviors and their pro-social behaviors within transition to over to a broader focus on conflict, aggression and abuse. And been doing that for the last 12 or so years and I’m just happy to be here and I I really appreciate you having us on.

Cassie (01:59):

We’re so excited to hear from you and all of the work you’ve done in this area. How about you, Tanya?

 Dr. Tanya Whitworth (02:04):

Thanks for asking. Yeah, so my background is, I was trained as a sociologist. I completed my PhD in sociology in 2022 and my research looked at the impact of family relationships, especially parent-child relationships on wellbeing and health outcomes. And so when I was looking for position after finishing my PhD, I had become over time very interested in the, the sort of negative impacts of social relationships and the different ways that even though social relationships can offer support and a lot of positive impacts, they can also have sort of a dark side. And so this position as a research scientist for the SARA initiative was very appealing to me. And since taking it, I’ve really immersed myself in all of the literature on sibling aggression and abuse. And it’s become extremely important to me. And I just think it’s a very under-recognized topic that a lot of people need to, to learn more about. And so that’s what we’re trying to do.

Cassie (03:18):

Yeah. I’ve been an, a participant and have attended many trainings Right. In years of social work practice, and I’ve never been to one on this topic. So I’m really excited that we’re here and able to spend some time digging into this. So, you know, maybe let’s start at the beginning. How common is sibling aggression and abuse?

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (03:36):

It’s actually more common than many people think, and especially in comparison to other forms of abuse and assault. We know from national level data in the US that sibling physical aggression is the most common form of family violence, that youth experience. It happens more often than intimate partner violence, abuse and neglect by a caregiver and even peer assault. We know from this data that for children ages zero to 17, over a third of them have experienced some sort of victimization by a sibling.

Cassie (04:08):

Wow.

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (04:09):

Which can include physical, psychological, or property aggression in the past year. And it’s a similar number as well in use lifetime. So it is pretty common.

Cassie (04:22):

Wow. That’s really, that’s really surprising that the number’s so high.

 Dr. Tanya Whitworth (04:26):

And in terms of sibling sexual abuse, we don’t have as good data on this, but based on what we do know, it’s probably around 2 to 3% of children who experience sexual abuse from a sibling. And the one thing that makes it hard to know how common it is, it’s because disclosure is extremely low.

Cassie (04:49):

Yeah.

 Dr. Tanya Whitworth (04:49):

Children often don’t tell anyone about sexual abuse experiences. And it’s even lower if the person who’s harming them is a sibling. The other complication, and I think that we’ll talk more about this, but it can be hard to tell the difference between more normative and typical sibling sexual behavior and something that might be abusive. And we think sibling sexual behavior happens around to around 15% of children. So that is actually very common as well.

Cassie (05:21):

Oh, wow. That’ll, that’ll be really interesting to unpack. I do wanna just pause though and ask a question here to make sure we’re fully understanding. So could we just kind of list out like the different, I don’t know if you would say categories are helpful, but I wanna be really clear on the different types of sibling aggression and abuse that you’re looking at. We’re looking at.

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (05:41):

Yeah, sure. So when we talk about sibling physical aggression, we break it down even further into what we call mild and severe. Okay. the differentiation between those two is with mild aggression, there’s no injury and no weapon or weapon like object used. And with severe aggression, there is an injury left, and there may be a weapon or a weapon like object used. Mild aggression obviously is more common than severe aggression. And there may be with severe physical aggression, there may be a real impact, an emotional or physical impact on the harm child. Those are things like pushing, kicking, biting, you know, it can get as severe as like broken bones black eyes, you know, it can be pretty significant. And with psychological aggression that can include, you know, teasing, making fun of making threats and but it can be quite severe as well in terms of threatening life, threatening harm, threatening social relationships, family relationships and such. So that can, that can be pretty s severe as well. When I talk about property aggression, this can be things like breaking cherished items stealing them, forcible, taking like out of your hands. So that’s what we’re speaking about there. And I, and I’ll let Tanya define sexual abuse.

 Dr. Tanya Whitworth (07:12):

Yeah. So under our umbrella at Sarah of what, what we have expertise in, we also talk about sibling sexual abuse. And sibling sexual abuse has a lot in common actually with other types of sibling abuse, physical, psychological, but it also has some unique features. And as I mentioned, it exists along a continuum with other forms of less harmful sibling sexual behavior. And so to sort of identify whether sexual behavior between siblings might be abusive, we can think about what the behavior is. So is it an age inappropriate or advanced sexual behavior, for example is it repetitive? Is there a lot of secrecy involved? And we can also think about the motivation of the, the child who is causing harm or initiating the behavior. So, you know, is, are they motivated by curiosity or by maybe compulsion peer pressure or even a desire to harm their sibling or embarrass their sibling in some way. And then we also very importantly, need to think about the impact on the child who is being harmed. And so are they being deceived or coerced? And how much is it affecting their wellbeing? And how much is it likely to affect their wellbeing in the future?

Cassie (08:46):

That’s super helpful. Yeah.

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (08:48):

I just wanna go back to making a differentiation. So we think of sibling aggression and abuse on a continuum as well. So other forms. So the psychological, the physical and such. And you know, when I spoke of mild aggression and severe aggression, there is an intent to harm there, but typically it’s more mutual. These behaviors. What differentiates physical and psychological, mild or severe aggression from abuse is that it is typically associated with one sibling or the harming sibling has the power. It is not mutual, that it is unidirectional. And that there may be an element of coercion there and that there is likely a significant psychological or physical impact on the child who has been harmed. So there’s that intent, there’s that power differential, there’s that harm, and or the impact we’d also say, so that differentiates what we call mild or severe aggression from abuse.

Cassie (09:58):

Okay. That’s super helpful. Thank you. One of the things I’m wondering, and I know this is a little bit out of the order, we plan to talk about things, but I think it would be really helpful maybe to jump in right here with, ’cause if I’m thinking about this as a listener, I’m wondering like, well, like my kids fight all the time, right? They wrestle and they rip up each other’s journals and, you know, and then just all the narratives we have around siblings and what’s normative and sibling rivalry. Can we take a little time to unpack like what is harmless versus where we step over into aggressive and abusive and how you two think about that in your various areas of specialty?

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (10:35):

Sure. Rivalry is there is a competition that can happen in between siblings. There’s only so many resources in a family to go around. When I say resources, I talk about love, attention, financial.

Cassie (10:51):

Seats on the couch

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (10:52):

<Laugh>, yeah. Whatever, right. Who, who gets dessert first?

Cassie (10:56):

Yeah. <laugh>.

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (10:57):

Yeah. So, you know, siblings will develop, you know, ways to get their parents’ attention. They’ll develop traits or, or characteristics that differentiate them from one another in order to capture their parents’ attention or resources in a family. And look, rivalry can be kind of mean sometimes not very mindful of each other’s feelings. And but you know, there isn’t an intent to harm here. You know, and not all rivalry is bad. It can really drive siblings figuring out their individual successes. They’re able to shine in their own way and appreciate one another. And I always, it’s, Tanya knows this, I always tell this story. I have three kids and they all three played soccer, but they played different positions on the field, and that is, even though it was the same sport. So their siblings will find ways in order to capture the attention and such, and the love that they’re looking for from, from their parents. The difference between rivalry and things that are more concerning is, you know, when there’s an intent to harm. And also when they’re looking for the impact on the child who has been harmed. So if a child comes and says, you know, I, this is upsetting to me, or I’ve been hurt, I have a bruise. It is very important on, on how parents respond to that. It’s not unusual for parents, you know, and just oh, my brother did that to me, or It’s no big deal. It’s not gonna happen again or this is just what brothers and sisters do. Or when you get to be adults, you’re gonna love each other. Yeah. And it’s a dismissal that’s not validating that impact. And, you know, I don’t want to make parents feel bad here at this moment or to say that there’s one way to approach this. But I think in times when children are coming and saying, I’ve been hurt or I’ve been impacted in some way, to stop and, you know, listen to that and respond in a way that’s empathetic.

Cassie (13:04):

Yeah. That’s really helpful. And, and Tanya, what about in your area of expertise?

 Dr. Tanya Whitworth (13:09):

So I think that part of what obscures sibling aggression and abuse of all types is our cultural tendency to view sibling relationships as intrinsically positives. And, you know, even when we think about, you know, ideals of brotherhood, right? That’s sort of this very positive view of, of sibling. And it’s true sibling relationships can be incredibly positive for people. And we actually want more people to have positive lifelong supportive sibling relationship but when people are sort of caught in that attitude towards sibling relationships, it allows them to overlook behaviors that they wouldn’t overlook in other relationships. And so, you know, an example I often give is if a child had a black eye and they, you know, were asked, how did you get the black eye? If they said that a parent had harmed them, that would be a major red flag. And cause for concern if they said that a peer at school had harmed them or, or a slightly older child, if they said that a dating partner had hit them,

Cassie (14:25):

yeah.

 Dr. Tanya Whitworth (14:25):

all of those would be taken very seriously in most cases. But if they say that it was a sibling, it’s quite likely that it will just be dismissed and, you know, oh, well that’s, you know, again, as Karina discussed, that’s normal all siblings fight. And so we just wanna sort of question, you know, is the impact really so different on the child? And so a lot of the same signs that you would look for that a child might be being maltreated by a caregiver or bullied by peers, a lot of the same sort of signs like they’re avoiding certain people, anxiety various physical health stomach troubles, all of those types of things that you would look for, you know, be on the lookout for those with siblings too.

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (15:13):

I also wanna add this, you know, when these kinds of behaviors, you know, the more mild behaviors and such that seem to be crossing a line, or if siblings are having a hard time getting along, that really is an opportunity for so much for parents. I, so I wanna focus on what parents can do and how meaningful it can be or how significant it can be if parents see these kinds of situations, I’m not talking about abuse or I’m talking more the mild, you know, everyday kind of stuff, that this really is an opportunity to teach pro-social skills. It’s an opportunity to teach how to fight. We know that, you know, look, one of the first persons that you fight with and you learn how to fight with is your sibling.

Cassie (16:03):

Absolutely.

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (16:03):

And a peer it’s a totally different ball game when you’re fighting with a parent, right?

Cassie (16:07):

Yeah.

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (16:07):

The parent’s got the advantage all day long. But siblings do in some ways, but they’re more of a peer and you do it before you really have peer relationships as well.

Cassie (16:16):

Yeah.

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (16:16):

So we know that the skills learned in terms of conflict management, conflict resolution caring for another is starts with a sibling relationship. And we know that these skills are generalized to peer relationships, romantic relationships, and even in adulthood work relationships. So in that moment where someone’s not being mindful, someone’s not listening, someone’s throwing insults.

Cassie (16:46):

Yeah.

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (16:47):

It’s a perfect time for parent coaching and teaching emotion regulation skills. It’s a perfect time to say, Hey, let’s just take a moment here. What is your brother and sister saying to you? What is their message? What is it that’s bothering them? Okay. And take a moment and learn how to listen to that message. And then, rather than, which is very typical in fights, is to focus how I’ve been victimized, how you hurt me.

Cassie (17:14):

Right? Right, right.

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (17:15):

Let’s move forward. Why? Because I value this relationship. So let’s figure out a solution together. And it is so empowering for parents and for siblings in that moment to develop that solution. Why? Because parents don’t have to favor, they don’t have to figure it out. It’s the siblings take ownership and they did it together. And that’s very strengthening for their relationship.

Cassie (17:42):

Yeah. I mean, just listening to you, I’m, I’m struck by, by two thoughts. One is so I’m a parent of two elementary school aged children, and I would say it is a topic of almost every conversation with other parents, right? Like, ah, they won’t stop fighting. So, it’s, it’s there, you know, it’s interesting ’cause the way we’re talking about this problem sort of brings up the invisible component of it, but it’s also so present when people are talking about it, in other words. And then the other thing I’m just thinking about is we, we focus so much on the attachment model and how the relationship with your primary caregiver creates this blueprint for adult relationships. I’m really struck, you know, this is the first time literally I’ve ever thought about this. And it makes a ton of sense that your relationship with your siblings is also creating that blueprint for you. So thank you. From my learning <laugh>.

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (18:32):

Yeah, no, I, this is sort of the light bulb that we often see when we are doing trainings and talking to professionals and that, you know, the sibling relationship is one of the longest you’ll ever have in your life, potentially, I mean longer than the one you have with your parents.

Cassie (18:45):

Yeah.

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (18:46):

And it influences you in so many ways directly, but in ways you’re not even aware of sometimes. And that is, that is definitely true.

 Dr. Tanya Whitworth (18:56):

People are not used to thinking about sibling relationships. And I mean, this is also advice that we have for social workers and clinicians of all types, is to, you know, consider asking about sibling relationships, not just for children, but also for adult.

Cassie (19:14):

Yeah.

 Dr. Tanya Whitworth (19:14):

Because it may be that some of the, the issues that your adult clients are dealing with may actually have some echoes of patterns that were developed in sibling relationships, but many people won’t think of that because, as you mentioned, Cassie, we’re so used to thinking about the parent child relationship as the most central in childhood.

Cassie (19:37):

That’s so fascinating. Why, why has this issue, you know, I think we’ve touched this in different ways, but I, I just wanna make sure we really, I really understand it, frankly. Why has it been invisible for so long, do you think?

 Dr. Tanya Whitworth (19:51):

Yeah, I think it goes back to something we touched on earlier is it is just generally our views on siblings. There’s a wide range of, you know, what we think of as acceptable behavior between siblings. And in some cases, something we didn’t mention is some parents believe that these kinds of aggressive behaviors and such are good for kids.

Cassie (20:13):

Oh.

 Dr. Tanya Whitworth (20:14):

That it’ll make them a little tougher. It’ll help, you know, thicken their skin when they’re dealing with the, the real world or when they go out in the real world or dealing with their peers and such. So you might also get that experience at home, but that kind of experience isn’t the one that we’re promoting. We’re suggesting provide a different one in terms of learning how to negotiate work through problems and learning things about body autonomy can also happen with siblings as well. And, you know, respecting those boundaries and such. So there’s a tremendous amount of opportunity for teaching lifelong skills through the sibling relationship. I mean, on a daily basis, there’s, you know, siblings are interacting with one another. And, you know, one study showed, as you mentioned, conflict happens so often, one studies showed that up to like seven times an hour <laugh>.

Cassie (21:09):

Yeah.

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (21:09):

So things invite, I mean, we’ve all been separated in the backseat of the car <laugh>, you know, but that kind of thing so’s a lot.

Cassie (21:15):

I feel seen by that statistic right now, <laugh>

 Dr. Tanya Whitworth (21:17):

But we know that when parents coach or help, that it has tremendous benefits for the children themselves and for their relationships and for family relationships. Parents don’t feel it’s exasperated and having to make choices between their children. And eventually the children will learn these skills and parents aren’t even involved anymore.

Cassie (21:42):

Yeah.

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (21:42):

And that’s actually a good thing, you know, they’ll take on, and this will be part of their kind of tool set for life. And, and it works,

 Dr. Tanya Whitworth (21:52):

I think many times when faced with sibling fighting. And again, you know, I think we’re not in the habit of differentiating sibling fighting from, you know, harmless squabbles to more severe things that that might be harmful. But I think many times when siblings fight, and it happens, so often parents either get stuck in the role of the referee where they’re constantly being called to arbitrate. You know, he said this, she did that and make a decision. Or they take a very hands-off approach where they want to let the children work it out. But if the children don’t have the, those skills that Karina was discussing, then that can devolve into aggression. And so we’re, and we actually, we have, a resource that we can give you for the show notes.

Cassie (22:46):

yeah.

 Dr. Tanya Whitworth (22:46):

A short two page bulletin that actually outlines this mediation process that Corina’s been talking about. And so this is like the idea of teaching children these conflict resolution skills so that they can eventually solve their own problems, but in a constructive and not destructive way.

Cassie (23:03):

Yeah, that would be great. Because I think it’s so helpful, you know, people are often listening in their cars or on the go and then later wanna go back and, and kind of dig into some, some more materials about it. I know we wanna talk a little bit about your program, about SARA, but before we do that, I was wondering if we could spend a little more time just unpacking for folks who are just arriving at this conversation, what are some of the impacts? You know, we’ve sort of mentioned that there’s lifelong impacts in a variety of different ways for children who experience sibling abuse and aggression. Could we talk about what some of those are, just to kind of give a full picture of what that experience could be?

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (23:41):

Sure. We know there are impacts on mental health, for example from sibling conflict, sibling aggression, sibling abuse, depression higher rates of depression, anxiety. Some work has shown with adults from sibling aggression, abuse, suicide ideation, eating disorders. We also know there’s higher rates of substance use and delinquent behavior, some externalizing behaviors in terms of physical impacts, in children, we know that things like affects their sleep, it affects things like headaches, in tummy aches nausea probably related to some of the mental health effects that we’ve, that we have seen. We also know that it is linked with quality of relationships in the family. So as you can imagine, siblings that have a lot of conflict and aggression, this doesn’t necessarily lend itself to a closer relationship at the time and over time across the lifespan. So there can even be estrangement and that also can happen with parents as well, because children may not feel protected or believed.

Cassie (24:53):

Of course. Yeah.

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (24:53):

And why did you favor in the fights? You know, my younger sister and not me, also, when parents are continually managing the sibling relationship, what we’ve found at later life is that when that parent passes on, siblings haven’t learned how to have their own relationship, that’s always through the parent.

Cassie (25:14):

Hmm.

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (25:14):

And so their relationship will suffer there as well. We also know that it’s, it’s linked with peer relationships. So for example, in our work, we found that children who are chronically victimized by their sibling, were two and a half times more likely to be bullied by a peer.

Cassie (25:32):

Oh wow.

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (25:32):

And we also know that aggression in sibling relationships, violent behavior is linked with dating violence as well. So a number of connections.

Cassie (25:42):

Yeah. And Tanya, I imagine there’s some specific to sexual abuse.

 Dr. Tanya Whitworth (25:44):

Of course. So, you know, sibling sexual abuse can impact all of the same impacts that Karina just listed, as well as sort of sexuality development. And.

Cassie (25:57):

Of course.

 Dr. Tanya Whitworth (25:57):

it can impact, have really large impacts on future romantic relationships, comfort with sexuality, ideas about, you know, one’s value being linked to sex as opposed to, you know, other aspects of your personality talents, and then, you know, I’ll add too that some more severe forms of sibling abuse are actually linked to long-term health impacts. So, for example, we had a sibling abuse survivor reach out to us whose brother used to throw her repeatedly against the wall as a child. And she has back problems to this day. She’s in middle life now, and she has back problems that she traces back to that abuse. And so, you know, we, we certainly aren’t saying that that is the most common scenario, but that is one potential impact.

Cassie (26:51):

Yeah. Okay. So if I am kind of summing up a little bit, you know, we’ve been able to, in a really short amount of time cover that this is, this is here, it’s not invisible. Well, it may be invisible in a larger narrative, but it’s way more common. The rates of prevalence are higher than you think. And we’ve talked a little bit about the types of sibling aggression and abuse and some of the impacts. Let’s talk about your program. Let’s talk about SARA. Tell us a little bit about it.

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (27:17):

Yeah, no, this is great. And we’re excited to speak to you, especially on a social work podcast. Yeah. Because social workers really maybe some of the first individuals to learn about this behavior.

Cassie (27:29):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (27:29):

and really can be sort of like that frontline to identify it, recognize it, and then to provide some resources and some help here if this is happening. So we, at SAARA, I mean, we were created in part to change the perception of sibling aggression abuse as something as not concerning temporary, no big deal. And so we were created firstly to change the perceptions and to create awareness about this that has changed some of these norms that have really kept sibling aggression abuse hidden. We are there as a resource to translate, to bring the research to the public, to professionals and practitioners in a way that’s easily accessible, broken down. And so, you know, what do I need to know? And here are some resources, or here’s what the issue is and here’s the things that you need to be aware of. We also are hoping to really give attention or highlight those who are, have been harmed by this. So we, on our website have an archive where we encourage adult survivors of sibling aggression abuse to submit their stories. And this having those stories has, and we include them in our narratives and such as Tanya did here today. Really make it real.

Cassie (28:55):

Yeah.

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (28:56):

And really bring out the hidden to, you know, the light, I guess. And we are building a network of professionals. We interact with social workers, pediatricians those in the legal and law enforcement fields, clinicians, guidance counselors. They may be one of the first to hear about this teachers, et cetera.

Cassie (29:16):

Yeah. Yeah.

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (29:16):

So we really are casting quite a wide net to connect with. And then we are focused on prevention and intervention as our second goal. Offering workshops, offering trainings. We’re available for them to any size group, professional organization. And we have a lot of tools and information to offer as resources for those who have seen this. And going back to one of Tanya’s first comments, you know, many in terms of social workers have seen this, but haven’t been trained in it.

Cassie (29:49):

Absolutely.

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (29:49):

So we’re trying to fill that gap.

Cassie (29:51):

Very cool.

 Dr. Tanya Whitworth (29:52):

Yeah, you know, I think being a translational science initiative is one of the things that most excites me about this project, because so often research is published and it’s not translated into practice. Yeah. And we really have the research now going back two or three decades, and the volume of research has increased to back up everything that we’ve said today. And so the time now is to get that information out there to practitioners, to the public. And so in addition to everything Karina mentioned, we also have a Psychology Today blog that we post about every four to six weeks different articles on this topic. Sometimes we have co-written posts with other experts. And then we also have an Instagram, Facebook, and X account that we post on. We’d love for people to follow us, and we do produce a lot of different materials handouts, short bulletins that are two to three pages long. And those are all on our website. And we’re also happy to, to share, you know, even if people want to just reach out to us at our email address to, you know, with a specific problem or specific need for resources, we’re also happy to send those to people directly. So we really just wanna be here to help people access this information.

Cassie (31:14):

Yeah. You are such an incredibly accessible program. It’s fantastic. And listeners will put all of that, all of those links in our show notes, so you can go, go check them out because we’ve, we’ve barely dipped a toe into this conversation, right. There’s so many layers. We are, you know, closing up though in terms of time, so I’ll ask you each, is there one primary takeaway or, or one thing you really want our listeners to hold as we close out this conversation?

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (31:41):

Yeah, thank you. It is difficult to think about children harming another child.

Cassie (31:46):

Yeah.

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (31:47):

And in your own family, and we recognize that. But these kinds of experiences do happen. And while they do have negative impacts across the lifespan, they really are an opportunity to really create a strong, positive sibling relationship that your children, it’s really a gift that your children will have with them across the lifespan. And not only will it help their relationship, but their relationship with others. It’s really, this relationship is more significant than people think, I think.

Cassie (32:20):

Yeah.

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (32:20):

But when you think about it, then you get <laugh>.

Cassie (32:23):

Of course, it’s right there.

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (32:24):

Yes. And the importance that social workers, their role in all of this is just not to be, you know, dismissed here at all. It is really, they have a significant opportunity here as well to really help families manage conflict, figure out how to, So they’re not exasp parents Aren’t exasperated. It’s, it’s, There’s a great opportunity here and We’re happy to fill it. <Laugh>.

Cassie (32:50):

Thank you. How about you Tanya?

 Dr. Tanya Whitworth (32:52):

You know, it really does a disservice to sort of all, all siblings in the household when you ignore the behavior because the child who is causing the harm also probably needs help. You know, they may have experienced some sort of maltreatment themselves and that behavior and that way of relating to someone will likely stick with them too. And so we’ve talked a lot about the child who is harmed, but I think we have to remember that the child who is causing the harm is also a child. And also we want them to have the best possible positive development. And so when we, you know, ignore it, we’re doing a disservice to both children or all children in the case of, you know, multiple siblings.

Cassie (33:38):

I think that was amazing. Thank you so much. We’re so appreciative for your time today, and we are really excited to share some links for your programs and hopes that folks can find you and continue to learn about this really important topic. So thank you.

Corinna Jenkins Tucker (33:52):

Thank you so much, Cassie, for having us. Really appreciate it.

 Dr. Tanya Whitworth (33:54):

Yeah. We really appreciate this opportunity to share our message and our program with your listeners. Thank you.

Cassie (34:04):

The social work lens is produced by the University of Vermont’s Child Welfare Training Partnership and the state of Vermont. Our theme music is composed and performed by local band Brick Drop, and our sound production and engineering has been brought to you by Egan Media Productions. We’d also like to give a special thank you to our in-House administrative production assistant Emma Baird for the social work lens. I’m Cassie Gillespie, and we’ll see you next time.