What happens when the rules change overnight? 

Transcript:

Anna Rodgers (00:00):

How do they manage in these difficult times to stay afloat? You know, because you cannot come home and tell your spouse or your best friends every day what you’ve experienced at work, because then you’re, you’re just traumatizing other people.

Cassie Gillespie (00:14):

Yeah, yeah. Trauma dumping, right.

Anna Rodgers (00:16):

And Yeah, and, and, you know, no one’s really gonna truly understand.

Cassie Gillespie (00:24):

Hi, I am Cassie Gillespie and you’re listening to the social work lens. Today we’re bringing you a conversation with immigration attorney Anna Rodgers. Hey Anna.

Anna Rodgers (00:34):

Good morning.

Cassie Gillespie (00:34):

Hi. So we should probably disclose at the top that we’ve been friends for a really long time, and I basically coerced you into coming on today. Does that sound fair?

Anna Rodgers (00:46):

Yep. That’s all true. <Laugh>.

Cassie Gillespie (00:48):

So, Anna and I, I don’t know, was it college? Like 2000, probably the year 2000, somewhere around there. Met many, many years ago, have worked together, traveled together lived together post-college. And in the more recent seasons of life, we’ve been living kind of parallel lives, but doing different roles. Does that sound fair?

Anna Rodgers (01:09):

Yeah, That’s right. And you’ve been pretty insistent in communication, you know, since we separated and became adults? <Laugh>?

Cassie Gillespie (01:16):

Yes. I’m the friend that calls and keeps in touch. And so Anna does immigration work, which we’ll get into. But a couple years ago, Anna and I had the opportunity to collaborate professionally and we actually started a pilot program at Anna’s firm to promote a collective care approach to address secondary trauma for legal professionals. And in the course of that role, just the other day, we were on the phone and Anna was telling me a little bit about kind of like the state of the state at her firm. And in that conversation I suggested that we should have you come in and record with us so that you can kind of share this story at a bigger platform so that more folks can, can hear. And so I’m really glad that you were willing to do it, and thank you for being here today.

Anna Rodgers (02:01):

Yeah. Thank you for having me and all the work that you’re doing for other immigration attorneys, but first and foremost, me and then my firm.

Cassie Gillespie (02:09):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (02:09):

It’s had a really significant impact. So for that reason, I’m happy to be here. Happy to share.

Cassie Gillespie (02:14):

Well, thanks. Okay. So let’s, we often sort of say like, let’s start at the beginning, but what type of law do you practice? We’ve said it’s immigration law, but what does that really mean in the context of your day-to-day?

Anna Rodgers (02:25):

So I practice removal defense removal is just a new word for deportation. So it’s when somebody comes in contact with the Department of Homeland Security, either at the border through border patrol or ice which is one of the enforcement wings of immigration. And then they’re put in removal proceedings, also known as deportation proceedings. And that’s who I defend. Whether they are detained at a detention facility or not detained. We do, you know, both courts. And so within my practice there are three other removal defense attorneys, and then we have a few other attorneys that handle more immigrant and family based visas.

Cassie Gillespie (03:09):

Mm-Hmm <affirmative>.

Anna Rodgers (03:10):

And then in addition to that, we have criminal and family law attorneys. And we work pretty collaboratively because there’s a big cross intersection between criminal family, immigration.

Cassie Gillespie (03:22):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (03:23):

It’s been helpful.

Cassie Gillespie (03:24):

People aren’t just one thing

Anna Rodgers (03:25):

<Laugh> Exactly. But I just do removal defense.

Cassie Gillespie (03:29):

Okay. And how long have you been doing that?

Anna Rodgers (03:31):

I’ve been doing it my first exposure when I was still in law school in, in 2010. But in earnest since 2011, since I was licensed.

Speaker 2 (03:42):

Okay. So a good long while now.

Anna Rodgers (03:43):

Mm-Hmm <affirmative>.

Cassie Gillespie (03:44):

Yeah. And so our listeners who have been following along might know, and you might know anecdotally just ’cause I fill you in on this stuff, but, so we’ve done a bunch of episodes sort of around immigration recently. We had Jill Martin Diaz come on and do kind of a 1 0 1 of what immigration law is. And in part, even though we’re social work focused on this podcast, it’s because there’s such a humanitarian aspect to helping people gain status and gain safe domicile. So Jill started by just laying out, you know, what do these terms even mean? Like refugee asylee. And then we had some young people who are, have various statuses, I don’t know what the plural of statuses. And they talked with their teachers and their superintendent about their experience. In this moment, under this current administration, we actually had that same superintendent come back just last week because he, although he’s a citizen, was detained and interrogated at the border. So we’ve put out a bunch of episodes trying to talk about this issue from different perspectives recently. And the real, you know, the primary reason I wanted folks to be able to hear from you is to hear a little bit about not only the stories of the people you’re serving, but also what it’s like to try to do your job in this current political moment. And you were practicing immigration law under the first Trump administration as well.

Anna Rodgers (05:07):

. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. Right?

Cassie Gillespie (05:08):

Yeah. So maybe, I don’t know, maybe let’s start with like, what is it, what’s different about practicing immigration law right now?

Anna Rodgers (05:16):

Yeah. Well, I think it’s important to, to state that Jill may have discussed that when you were before the immigration court. That is not an Article three court, that is an administrative law court. So it falls under the Department of Justice, you know. So the law, the presidential law that comes down, comes down through an appellate court and your circuit. So I live in Denver, Colorado, so our circuit is the 10th circuit. So you have presidential law and you have statutory law. But, you know, immigration is so controversial and is really used as such a political piece without having any real meaningful reform that you are practicing law under your precedent, under your circuit with your statutes. But based on the president that comes in, things can change wildly. You know, as even with through Obama who I was also practicing who he was president, you know, since then, people are really presiding under executive order.

Cassie Gillespie (06:18):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (06:19):

Even though you have all this law that feels consistent and equal, and you generally speaking, understand what the outcome might be for your client, because it is so political and because there are so many executive orders, you know, from one day to the next, the law can completely change. What does that,

Cassie Gillespie (06:35):

So go ahead. Don’t let me interrupt you.

Speaker 1 (06:37):

Well, no, I mean, it just means that one day you feel competent, sometimes expert In your field where you’re advising a client, truly, you know, this is what’s happened to you. This is the law, this is how we’re gonna defend. And then the next day you can say, well, none of that is actually true anymore.

Cassie Gillespie (06:56):

Oh, wow.

Anna Rodgers (06:56):

So we’re starting over again. And under Trump one, I think they really were testing the waters as to what they could do.

Cassie Gillespie (07:05):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (07:06):

And failed in many ways. You know, they were able to enact some pretty onerous policies. But COVID really stymied everything.

Cassie Gillespie (07:16):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (07:16):

So they only got so far in the presidency, and then everything had to had to stop, you know. But the second time around, they are really executing something different, consistent and cruel. And it has been a real slog to work under because it feels like whatever you knew five years ago, two years ago, one year ago, even the day before, is no longer relevant.

Cassie Gillespie (07:42):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (07:43):

So it has been very challenging just to feel competent and ethical as an attorney. So that’s just day one.

Cassie Gillespie (07:51):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (07:51):

Walking into a room, walking into a court room, you know. But the other part of it too is because of these policies are so cruel and so I guess sort of quietly executed that the other part of it is you’re just handholding family members and clients where no one knows what’s gonna happen next.

Cassie Gillespie (08:12):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (08:13):

And that becomes really, really exhausting because you are supposed to be the person that’s advocating, you’re supposed to be the person that knows what’s happening, and you’re the person who’s defending them.

Cassie Gillespie (08:25):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (08:25):

And so when sifting, you know, shifting sands under your feet, it becomes much more difficult.

Cassie Gillespie (08:30):

Well, and that’s sort of a social work role, right? To be like comforting families through the unknown. You know, you didn’t go to social work school, you went to law school,

Anna Rodgers (08:38):

Right, right. Where we are given absolutely no education and training on how to be social workers, but really how to support your client.

Cassie Gillespie (08:48):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (08:49):

when they’re going through a highly emotional situation, psychologically damaging situation. And then, you know, also no background on how to protect yourself.

Cassie Gillespie (09:00):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (09:01):

You know, your coworkers, your staff so you’re really left with, you know, I really only know the law. And so that will see me through. And now under Trump, I, you know, we don’t really know the law, so I think we’re all really in a place where we’re struggling.

Cassie Gillespie (09:15):

Yeah. It sounds like you’re all reeling a little bit.

Anna Rodgers (09:17):

Yes. Yes.

Cassie Gillespie (09:19):

How is the rest of the removal team doing, would you say?

Anna Rodgers (09:22):

Oh, I would say, well, I can’t speak for other people, but what I am viewing is that they’re doing badly because there’s so much pressure. And we have so many calls and we are busier than ever. But again, we have this conversation about what is competency and what is ethical. Right. So if one day I say, this is your case, this is the law, this is how we’ll proceed, they hire, and then the next day it’s all changed. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. You know, just psychologically it’s hard to feel like you’re being competent.

Cassie Gillespie (10:01):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (10:01):

For someone. But you know, it’s the other part too, where we are getting a lot of phone calls, so even our receptionists are struggling. Right. So we are getting a lot of phone calls who are saying, you know, I came home and the door to my house was open and there were groceries scattered all over the lawn, and I’m missing a relative, and I don’t know where they’ve gone.

Cassie Gillespie (10:25):

Oh my gosh.

Anna Rodgers (10:27):

And one of the neighbors said that they thought that it was ice, you know, but no one is in identifying information, you know, so they’re not wearing official badges. Right. You know, they’re not necessarily wearing identifying clothing that says that they’re ice, so they could be clean plain clothes with their mouths covered and their face covered. And so people are just speculating that it’s ice. What’s

Cassie Gillespie (10:50):

Your understanding of why ICE does that?

Anna Rodgers (10:53):

Well, I, you know, this is a first for me. I, I dunno if I just wasn’t paying attention before, but this is really the first time where I’ve seen ice plain cloth with face covering. And I know that I’ve heard from various members of the administration that they are just protecting their identity. Because they wanted to prevent against doxing. They wanted to, you know, preserve their safety and the safety of their family. But to me, you know, as an immigration attorney.

Cassie Gillespie (11:20):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (11:21):

Who studies you know, and works with people from countries, from dictatorships from countries that have devolved into chaos, who have secret police from their countries, this is how it feels like it all starts.

Cassie Gillespie (11:35):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (11:36):

You know, and so they’re just operating with impunity, you know, no one is using warrants anymore, you know, so, you know, no, we’ve done all these know your rights

Cassie Gillespie (11:47):

Trainings. Yeah. We talked about that.

Anna Rodgers (11:49):

You know, and you present to your community and you say, okay, this is what happens. You know, if someone approaches you on the street, if someone comes to your home, you know, you can ask if you’re under arrest, or you can ask to see a warrant, and it has to be a properly executed warrant, you know, and then just one day it all went away, you know, no one is using a warrant.

Cassie Gillespie (12:07):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (12:07):

No one is using a proper stop. And so clients are asking if we can sue the government.

Cassie Gillespie (12:14):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (12:14):

Constantly to which, you know, the government is condoning this kind of law enforcement tactic. So we just, again, feel at a loss.

Cassie Gillespie (12:23):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (12:24):

so it’s hard and yeah,

Cassie Gillespie (12:27):

for people who, people like me who really know very little about the law, why can’t you sue the government if it’s supposed to work this way? And it’s not.

Anna Rodgers (12:35):

Well, I mean, you can, I mean, right. There are class action lawsuits. I mean, basically what happens is you could sue individually, but we are talking about a group of people who are vulnerable, who are unsophisticated to the ways of the laws of the United States and the, and the procedures, and who don’t have a lot of money.

Cassie Gillespie (12:55):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (12:55):

For expensive litigation. You know, and that’s why nonprofits are so important. Class action lawsuits are so important. But generally it has been very difficult to sue the government. And as we’ve seen on even some of these birthright citizenship issues that the Supreme Court has sort of been ticking away.

Cassie Gillespie (13:17):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (13:18):

At the ability of people to come together as a group and to sue as a group, you know. And so when somebody is, you know, said that I have a family member that’s been kidnapped, and then we find out that they’ve been detained at the detention facility, you know, they have a small amount of money, and that’s where they’re gonna direct their funds.

Cassie Gillespie (13:36):

Yeah.

Cassie Gillespie (13:37):

Right. Because if their, their relative is eligible for a bond hearing, they still have to pay for a bond. Right. So you’ve already tapped into the limited reserve of a family, and I am not a not-for-profit attorney.

Cassie Gillespie (13:49):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (13:49):

You know, we’re in a law firm and we represent people who have to pay, even though, you know, I would say my partner says that we’re basically a nonprofit anyway, <laugh>, we’re the social, the social work of attorneys.

Cassie Gillespie (14:03):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (14:03):

but yeah, I, I have to say, it just, it feels like it’s coming on every front at this point. You know, it’s practicing the law, but it’s even the receptionist receiving a phone call from someone who’s just sobbing and can barely get out the words to say that they feel like it’s, it’s possible that the relative has been kidnapped.

Cassie Gillespie (14:22):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (14:22):

Are arrested by ice, and can we please help?

Cassie Gillespie (14:24):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (14:25):

So just from a ground level interaction, every day, every minute of the day, our receptionist and paralegals and legal assistants are being inundated from this kind of messaging.

Cassie Gillespie (14:36):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (14:37):

You know, so every part of our firm, every individual in our firm has been really impacted. And it’s hard to walk away from any of this. It’s hard to find balance.

Cassie Gillespie (14:47):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (14:47):

You know, when you go home knowing that people are just being kidnapped from their homes and their families.

Cassie Gillespie (14:52):

Right. How are you supposed to just turn this off at the end of the day and go pick up your kids?

Anna Rodgers (14:56):

Right. Well, and you are a mother.

Cassie Gillespie (14:58):

Yes.

Anna Rodgers (14:58):

So when you were doing the same sort of thing, you’re just required to somehow snap out of it.

Cassie Gillespie (15:03):

Right.

Anna Rodgers (15:03):

And go from something very desperate and very sad to how is everyone’s day?

Cassie Gillespie (15:08):

Right. Get in the car,

Anna Rodgers (15:09):

what would everyone like for dinner?

Cassie Gillespie (15:11):

Sure. What was your high, what was your low

Cassie Gillespie (15:14):

We have been starting to put together an episode about moral injury, which I know we’ve talked about a little bit, but it’s this idea that sometimes in the course of your work or any role you have, you’re required to do things or witness things or be part of things that transgress your personal moral values and ethics. And that over time, that takes this very distinct toll that can create a sense of like existential dread, you know, like what is even happening right now. And I’m hearing from lots of people who are doing immigration work of any form or fashion that they’re really experiencing high levels of moral injury and moral distress right now.

Anna Rodgers (15:54):

Yeah. I mean, for me personally, I can’t tell if I’m slipping into apathy or it’s just so oppressive that I am numb.

Cassie Gillespie (16:03):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (16:04):

That I, I just,

Cassie Gillespie (16:05):

And maybe need to be to be able to keep carrying on doing what you’re doing day in, day out.

Anna Rodgers (16:10):

And even with all of the work that we’ve done all of these years.

Cassie Gillespie (16:13):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (16:14):

Right.

Cassie Gillespie (16:15):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (16:15):

About finding balance in your life you know, trying to institute policies within the office to help protect yourself and help protect others.

Cassie Gillespie (16:24):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (16:25):

You know, even outside of you know, exercising and eating Right. And spending time with your family, you know? And so right now none of that feels useful,

Cassie Gillespie (16:35):

Adequate,

Speaker 1 (16:36):

Yeah. Because it just feels like you are in an avalanche of work of pain.

Cassie Gillespie (16:42):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (16:43):

Of exposure to other people’s suffering without any answers or opportunities. And, you know, I think that what I’m seeing from a lot of other attorneys is that it’s kind of taking one case to really push you out into a space where your mental health is, is so bad, <laugh>.

Cassie Gillespie (17:03):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (17:04):

And the idea of practicing really feels so overwhelming. And I recently had a client like this who I have been working for since the first Trump administration. And the, this client called me from the detention center and said, can you help me? And I said, you know, I asked him a few questions, and he had a criminal conviction. It actually was not a criminal conviction. It was a juvenile conviction, and it was a, a juvenile finding, and it was a type of juvenile finding where if someone has this atypically, don’t represent them.

Cassie Gillespie (17:38):

Okay.

Anna Rodgers (17:38):

It’s sort of my hard line. If you have this, I, I don’t represent you, you know. But then he explained the facts that he was a child and it was children being raised by children being raised by absent parents and an absent community. And so I sort of started to soften to hearing what he had to say, you know? And in the end he said, well, and by the way, I am in a wheelchair. And I said, okay, well, why are you in a wheelchair? And, you know, he said, you know, about five months ago I fell off a forklift at work. I hurt my back. And then all of a sudden, a couple of weeks ago, I just couldn’t walk anymore.

Cassie Gillespie (18:15):

Oh, wow.

Anna Rodgers (18:16):

I’m not a medical doctor, but those two things don’t sound related.

Cassie Gillespie (18:20):

Yeah. Yeah. This is a young person?

Anna Rodgers (18:23):

A young person. Yeah. He let’s see, he’s in his late thirties now.

Cassie Gillespie (18:29):

Okay.

Anna Rodgers (18:29):

Because we’ve been working together since the first Trump administration. But, you know, he was not receiving services from doctors. Everyone was sort of blowing him off. So he and I worked really hard to find a doctor that was willing to listen to his story. And no one actually had asked about his previous medical history, his family medical history, and it turned out he has ALD, which is, I might get this wrong, but it is, I believe it’s a, I’ll have to figure it out, <laugh>.

Cassie Gillespie (18:57):

Okay.

Anna Rodgers (18:57):

I’ll have to come figure it out. But basically what happens is your body deteriorates and your muscles become weak and they eventually atrophy. You eventually fall into a coma or a vegetative state, and then you pass away and it’s genetic. So once he told me about his grandfather’s medical history, and I think his grandfather had Addison’s disease, we started putting the pieces together and got a doctor to listen. So, you know, what’s hard about this is it there’s no cure and there’s really no treatment.

Cassie Gillespie (19:28):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (19:28):

So this man is now in very, very bad shape. And his wife is a US citizen. He has used citizen children who also are showing signs of autoimmune disorder, who will likely have it who don’t have enough money to get the children tested, because, you know, the earlier that you’re testing the better the interventions early on. And so all that we were asking from the administration is to keep him here united with his family.

Cassie Gillespie (19:53):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (19:54):

His US citizen wife could not do all the working, all the house care and care for her husband alone. So the government agreed year after year after year to keep him while we were starting to do family-based visa work.

Cassie Gillespie (20:06):

Great.

Anna Rodgers (20:06):

And then, about a week ago we were up for renewal, and whether he got to stay here or got to leave, and they denied it, and they quickly sent him off to Mexico, just sort of with a matter of hours

Cassie Gillespie (20:21):

Did they give a reason why they deny it? Do they have to?

Anna Rodgers (20:24):

No. Nope. They don’t give a reason, you know, and I said, you know, he’s not a danger to the community. He has all of these you know, humanitarian bone feeds to keep him here. He has the family members.

Cassie Gillespie (20:37):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (20:37):

The US citizen family ties and, you know, I spoke to someone higher up and they said, I, it’s not my decision. You know, it’s coming from two, three people ahead of, of me, and this is what we’re doing now. So we had to have that conversation in front of the man’s wife who just sat there sobbing.

Cassie Gillespie (20:53):

Oh my gosh.

Anna Rodgers (20:54):

You know, so to see, to be really effective for many, many years.

Cassie Gillespie (20:59):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (20:59):

And believe that we have consistency in the system.

Cassie Gillespie (21:03):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (21:03):

Right. You know, I said, okay, we see what we’re doing. We’re going to give you space to do it. We were doing it, we were being diligent. And to see that, that all just disappears. You know, the wife couldn’t understand it, couldn’t wrap her brain around it.

Cassie Gillespie (21:16):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (21:17):

You know, why was it okay last year, but it’s not okay this year.

Cassie Gillespie (21:20):

And what do you think the prognosis is for him medically, post deportation?

Anna Rodgers (21:26):

Well I mean,

Cassie Gillespie (21:28):

I know you’re not his doctor, but

Anna Rodgers (21:30):

No, I, I’m not, I mean, basically there, there’s no, you know, there’s no cure and there’s no treatment. He does his best to lift weights. He’s in a wheelchair, but he is trying to keep up his muscle strength to eat right. But they only have a distant relative in Mexico, and that relative met him in Juarez, and they’re just trying to figure it out.

Cassie Gillespie (21:50):

Okay.

Anna Rodgers (21:51):

So, but you know, the point to this case is I have been working with this person for many years working to get doctors to listen, working to get in, in the Department of Homeland Security to listen. And we were really getting somewhere.

Cassie Gillespie (22:06):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (22:06):

And then one day the bottom falls out, and then it doesn’t work like that anymore.

Cassie Gillespie (22:10):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (22:11):

Obviously, I was so close with this family that that just felt sort of fatal. It, it felt, it’s, I mean, it’s going to be fatal for this individual, and it’s going to be fatal for the mother who now has to work, you know, within two countries to figure out how to support her family. And you know, when that happened, I could just really feel things shift for me.

Cassie Gillespie (22:34):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (22:35):

And so, you know, when someone is sobbing on the site outside of a detention center and you’re sitting with them and you’re trying to like hold back tears… I don’t know….

Cassie Gillespie (22:49):

Yeah. If you had to put the shift into words, how would you describe it? What’s shifted for you?

Anna Rodgers (22:57):

Well, it feels like… I just need a minute…..

Cassie Gillespie (23:01):

Yeah. It’s okay.

Anna Rodgers (23:04):

You know, basically doing removal defense means that like, day in and day out, you’re hearing about the horrors of the world.

Cassie Gillespie (23:13):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (23:13):

So, you know, that kind of repeated exposure is really tough. And, you know, you sacrifice a lot physically, emotionally, psychologically, intellectually.

Cassie Gillespie (23:26):

impacts Your relationships.

Anna Rodgers (23:28):

Impacts your relationships. It impacts my relationship with my small children. You know, and I think that, you know, you say it’s all worth it because you’re creating change one family

Cassie Gillespie (23:43):

At a Time.

Anna Rodgers (23:43):

Yeah. you know, because the thing is, you know, my husband is also, he’s a psychotherapist and he works with men and trauma. And when you work in these fields, you really see the impact when you can change at the course of one person’s life. Because then you see the immediate impact to their immediate family members or their immediate circle, you know, and for immigrants in particular, it could be within a generation or two where there was someone who came here with absolutely nothing, no education, and then their children are grandchildren or graduating college or graduate school.

Cassie Gillespie (24:20):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (24:21):

You know, and then they’re coming back and they’re providing professional services to their community. And you really see it’s like wildfire.

Cassie Gillespie (24:29):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (24:29):

You know, it may be slow at first, but then it catches on, you know, and the same thing with you and the work you did, and what my husband does, you know, so when you’re having meaningful impact to an individual’s life, you can see how it impacts families and communities.

Cassie Gillespie (24:44):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (24:44):

So you feel like you’re doing really good work. So all of that hardship that you go through, all of that nonsense, you allowed to seep into your life feels worth it.

Cassie Gillespie (24:53):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (24:54):

But when you are no longer effective, is it worth it? Is it ethical to charge people rep for representation when you are no longer effective? You know, so the whole point is we know that the government is being very intentional in doing away with due process, you know, in doing away with the protections of the constitution. Right. It, they’re laying it out. We know what’s happening. And so when that happens, you know, as a lawyer, you say, okay, this is when I dig in and I really fight.

Cassie Gillespie (25:26):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (25:26):

Right. I really believe in this system. I believe strongly in the constitution. I feel strongly in the justice system. And then I’m ready to go. We’re all ready to fight. We get kind of, sort of a fire inside. But right now, I really go back and forth with myself saying like, do I actually have the fight in me in Trump too again? Yeah. You know, in immigration, which is just used as you know, a pawn in a political system between Democrats and Republicans, you know, am I being effective? Is this what I wanna do for the rest of my life?

Cassie Gillespie (26:03):

Yeah. Is it worth it?

Anna Rodgers (26:05):

Is it worth it? And so, you know, I have conversations with my husband 14 times a day who makes my comments about it not being worth it. <Laugh>.

Cassie Gillespie (26:13):

Well, that’s, you can ask any professional, in my experience in any type of helping field like this. And then you say, well, what does your partner think about your job? Right. And everyone’s like, they’re telling me to quit. Oh, she has a really hard job too. <Laugh>.

Anna Rodgers (26:29):

He has a really hard, too, and, you know, I have a neighbor two houses over who is a doctor who works in gender affirming care.

Cassie Gillespie (26:39):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (26:40):

And I’ve spoken to her and she, you know, her patients have her cell phone, and we’ve talked about that. I’m like, you know, I thought I, you know, had a hard time with boundaries. I’m like, no, no, no. You know, and her husband weighs in and it’s just a big, you know, it’s a big mess. <Laugh> <laugh>. But you know, the other part of it too is when you’re so in the trenches in your field like this, you don’t want to say that it defines you.

Cassie Gillespie (27:06):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (27:07):

You know, and, and it’s so a part of you that that’s who you are in the world. And so if you don’t do it anymore, who are you? What will you do? What’s your interest? You know, I have no other interests outside of this, but at the same time, I don’t, I don’t know, like, you know, some days, you know, within a day I’ll say, am I up for this?

Cassie Gillespie (27:28):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (27:28):

Can I do this? And I just, you know, got really emotional. And that’s how I know that I’m in the red.

Cassie Gillespie (27:34):

Yes.

Cassie Gillespie (27:35):

Yeah. <Laugh>, I know that I start tearing up and crying. And I’m not much of a crier.

Cassie Gillespie (27:41):

She is not <laugh>.

Anna Rodgers (27:43):

I do not cry. I do not really mote.

Cassie Gillespie (27:46):

Yes.

Anna Rodgers (27:46):

I’m generally a very monotone person, but now, you know, I’m crying at the drop of a hat about anything. Yeah. So I know that I’m in the red fault. And so we even, you know, we’re gonna have a team meeting later with my removal team.

Cassie Gillespie (28:00):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (28:00):

The other removal attorneys, because we’ve gotta check in with each other because I am the supervisor. I’m a partner in my firm, and if this is what I’m like, and this is what they see, you know, I’ve gotta touch base with them,

Cassie Gillespie (28:13):

I guess.

Anna Rodgers (28:14):

cause I’m not support.

Cassie Gillespie (28:15):

Yeah. That’s, that’s a question I have for you is, I, I don’t know to what extent you would describe yourself this way, but I see you very much as a mentor for young professionals, especially young female professionals coming up, that that’s a really big important part of the work you do. Right? So not just the clients you serve, but the colleagues that you sort of bring along. What is it, I don’t know, how is that part of you doing in this moment? Right. Like, that must, this must be especially complicated to be bringing people up in a system that is kind of falling apart.

Anna Rodgers (28:47):

Yeah. Well, our youngest, newest attorney, you know, graduated law school last year.

Cassie Gillespie (28:53):

Yeah. <laugh>

Anna Rodgers (28:54):

and this is what she’s coming into, you know, and then our other attorney, you know, he graduated into Trump won.

Cassie Gillespie (29:01):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (29:01):

So he actually entered in, in, in much in the same way. You know, but I try to lead like mostly through transparency. You know, I’m rarely the smartest and most capable in the room, but I think the important part of leading is being transparent and being strong and being consistent. Right. And, and training people and, you know, in the real human element of advocacy and representation. You know, listening to your client, listening to yourself, having intuition and then also being kind of a rock.

Cassie Gillespie (29:33):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (29:34):

You know, for yourself and others, you know. So because I’m crying at the drop of a head in a podcast, <laugh>, I don’t feel so much like a rock. You know, I feel overly transparent,

Cassie Gillespie (29:45):

little Vulnerable,

Anna Rodgers (29:46):

little vulnerable. You know, but then I have to just decide on balance. Is it helpful to be this transparent?

Cassie Gillespie (29:53):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (29:54):

Or is it not helpful? Does it feel like it provides insecurity to my team to be this vulnerable? Or does it feel like it opens a door for other people to share, to be able to say things out loud, sort of cleanse that and then move on?

Cassie Gillespie (30:09):

Yeah. Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (30:10):

So the answer is, I don’t know. <Laugh>.

Cassie Gillespie (30:12):

Yeah. <Laugh>.

Anna Rodgers (30:12):

So we’ll see. But I do my best, you know, but I care so deeply about my team first, you know, that I just wanna make sure that they’re okay. But, you know, especially from my youngest attorney, how she must feel

Cassie Gillespie (30:26):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (30:27):

To be so inspired in law school and ready to go and decide that she wants to do immigration law above all other things. And this is that what she enters into it you know, I worry about her. I wanna have a discussion with her, and I want, you know, I’m curious to see how vulnerable she’ll be with me.

Cassie Gillespie (30:45):

Yeah, yeah.

Anna Rodgers (30:46):

You know, if she even has the words to talk and discuss and has the confidence to be so open and transparent. Well,

Cassie Gillespie (30:53):

One of the things you and I have talked about, when we try to bring a collective care lens to, you know, attorney wellbeing, meaning it’s not just my job to self care my own way out of it, but to use the people around me Right. To practice relationships to help me be better. It takes some time to even be able to, to notice and articulate the impact your work is having on you before you can really leverage that community of support. Right. And so, in the early stages, I mean, I think it’s, it’s so much about seeing your leaders and your coworkers model what it’s like to be interconnected mm-hmm <affirmative>. And mutually supportive.

Anna Rodgers (31:30):

It is. And then, you know, you know, we’ve talked about this in the past, you know, when you are under attack in any way, right. Your funding has been cut. You know, something is pushing against you in your professional day to day, at least with my team, as we get sort of insular.

Cassie Gillespie (31:46):

Yes.

Anna Rodgers (31:46):

You know, we protective, you know, we sort of form together and we’re fighting the world because

Cassie Gillespie (31:53):

Heads down, arms linked.

Anna Rodgers (31:54):

Exactly. So at the core, there is so much strength mm-hmm <affirmative>. You know, so I often wonder about solo practitioners.

Cassie Gillespie (32:01):

Yes.

Anna Rodgers (32:01):

you know, how do they manage in these difficult times to stay afloat, you know, because you cannot come home and tell your spouse or your best friends every day what you’ve experienced at work, because then you’re, you’re just traumatizing other people. Yeah, yeah.

Cassie Gillespie (32:17):

Trauma dumping. Right.

Anna Rodgers (32:18):

And yeah. And, and, you know, no one’s really gonna truly understand.

Cassie Gillespie (32:23):

Yeah, yeah.

Anna Rodgers (32:24):

Yeah. And so it’s, you know, as a team, it’s, there’s a lot of strength there, but there can be a lot of damage.

Cassie Gillespie (32:30):

Yeah. Yeah.

Cassie Gillespie (32:32):

Well, we’re, we’re getting to the point where we should probably wind down, but I wanna make sure I ask you, I know you touched on this a couple different ways, but like, what are you hopeful about? What keeps you going?

Anna Rodgers (32:42):

Oh, boy.

Cassie Gillespie (32:43):

I know

Anna Rodgers (32:44):

<Laugh>, you know, I think this, there’s still so much fight left in.

Cassie Gillespie (32:50):

me mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Anna Rodgers (32:51):

And, you know, every day I am reading editorials every day, you know, listening to podcasts, and I see that there’s a lot of fight left in others.

Cassie Gillespie (33:01):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (33:02):

And so, I think more than anything, I’m really motivated and lifted up when I know that I am falling, that other people are really ready to take on the mantle.

Cassie Gillespie (33:14):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (33:14):

You know, other people are really ready to take on the fight. So even if I’m not right now, in this moment, in this day or tomorrow, you know, that kind of motivation that kind of pride and advocacy and, you know, whatever field people are in, you know, excites me and makes me feel proud again.

Cassie Gillespie (33:33):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (33:33):

Of our profession, of our community, of others. And I think as long as we have that I can do what I’m doing.

Cassie Gillespie (33:41):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (33:41):

Stand a little bit stronger,

Cassie Gillespie (33:43):

That’s collective care.

Anna Rodgers (33:45):

Yeah, it’s true. It is true. And so, as hard as it is to read the news and to hear from other people in other agencies, like the EPA, you know, department of Education, you know, the park service, the park service, you know, everyone is going through this and people are still fighting.

Cassie Gillespie (34:03):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (34:04):

And as long as no one’s really giving up you know, we all feel more emboldened to fight.

Cassie Gillespie (34:09):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (34:10):

But, you know, for the people that are burned out, it, it might not be their fight, you know, and can, you can make space for mentorship of the others who are fresher and newer and ready to go.

Cassie Gillespie (34:19):

Yeah. Yeah. There’s not just one way to be involved. And I think we lose sight of that sometimes. Right. Okay. Is, is there anything else you wanna make sure people hear before we go?

Anna Rodgers (34:29):

You know, I have to say for anyone who’s working in a field where they’re, they’re exposed to, to secondary trauma or really the trauma of others, you know, as much as I’m struggling right now, the work that you and I have done.

Cassie Gillespie (34:45):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (34:45):

So to have a lawyer and a social worker, right. So to collaborate across professions and to really fill those spaces where you have a gap in your education.

Cassie Gillespie (34:56):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (34:57):

Is really so important. And I think sometimes we, we get sort of dug into the expertise of our field. We don’t, we understand the true expertise that you’re missing. Yeah,

Cassie Gillespie (35:10):

Yeah, Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (35:11):

And sort of to really collaborate with other areas to really fill up what you’re doing and to elevate what you’re doing so that you can do it better with higher, higher survival rates.

Cassie Gillespie (35:24):

Yeah, Yeah. Less attrition, <laugh>.

Anna Rodgers (35:26):

Yeah. So I think that at this point, yeah. If we had not done all of the work we’d done with you and your consultation with our attorneys in our office, we’d be in a much, much harder, darker place.

Cassie Gillespie (35:37):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (35:38):

So I would say for anyone that’s working in a difficult field, you know, it really encourage you to reach out to other professionals to see how that they can really raise the bar in your own practice.

Cassie Gillespie (35:51):

I mean, I am just constantly shocked by how many helping professionals I talk to who feel incredibly responsible, such a high level of liability, and not in like a not in a litigious way, but like moral responsibility, right. Like moral liability for the folks they’re serving. And also feel isolated when there are so many other professionals helping maybe even that same client, you know? So I love that, like, continuing to search for opportunities to hold people jointly across all of our professions and roles and not be so siloed, you know, in law or social work or mental health or education or whatever it is, medical care, you know?

Anna Rodgers (36:30):

Yeah. And, you know, and there’s not a ton of people that are doing crossover.

Cassie Gillespie (36:35):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (36:35):

You know, so even the request to have those services, you know, create something where people can come up you know, within social work or, you know Yeah. Other to, to be kind of thoughtful and creative about what, what kind of services that they wanna provide. Yeah. You know, to corporations, <laugh>.

Cassie Gillespie (36:54):

Yeah.

Anna Rodgers (36:54):

You know, their organizations to try and move the needle there. Even on in morality and ethics, right?

Cassie Gillespie (37:03):

Mm-Hmm <affirmative>.

Anna Rodgers (37:03):

How, you know, once you try treating yourself a little bit better, your coworkers a little bit better. I mean, it really spreads and, and changes the way that you consider yourself, your coworkers, and your work.

Cassie Gillespie (37:14):

Yeah.

Cassie Gillespie (37:16):

All right. Well, that feels like a really complete place to leave it. So thank you for coming in and sharing all, all that you shared. We are so lucky to hear from you.

Anna Rodgers (37:26):

Okay. Thank you, Cassie.

Cassie Gillespie (37:30):

The social work lens is produced by the University of Vermont’s Child Welfare Training Partnership, and the State of Vermont. Our theme music is composed and performed by local band Brick Drop, and our sound production and engineering has been brought to you by Egan Media Productions. We’d also like to give a special thank you to our in-house administrative production assistant Emma Baird. For the Social Work Lens, I’m Cassie Gillespie, and we’ll see you next time.